Because... They recommend it at 700+ rwhp because thats when having a front mount finally becomes an advantage rather than a disadvantage. I see and believe that all shops state this as a search on ttnet will reveal the owners and workers of these shops stating it for themselves. The thread you posted in has Russel clearly stating that sidemounts are better for 98% of applications. Kyle from SGP says there better, Greg and Seb from Specialty zed say they are better, who am I leaving out? Only 2 10 second zeds in australia with front mounts yes, but if you check that post above we have 11 second runs on stock turbos with side mounts (anyone in australia???) plus another 2 low 10 second cars (i.e 10.1s not 10.9s) that have full bodies, not gutted cars like here. With such a gutted car maybe you would making 0.5s faster with side mounts like the US guys? Still I look forward to seeing some good data next week whatever it shows. So far I havent seen a single piece of evidence about the benefit of a front mount which is why Im so against them vs a tonne of evidence against. Maybe you can even it up some.
reek ...i think that i am the only one listening to you ...!!!!!!! are you feeling a bit zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzeeee too..???
10 second cars? Interested to know if these cars had drag slicks or road legal tyres like I had and what gear box? Why does 700hp plus finally become an advantage? Another miss quote from you he says. "We agree, Z1 SMICs are more than enough for 98% applications (n/m)"Not BETTER as such he said more than enough. This was also after you totally twisted what I stated on this forum and gave them a leading question. My car is lightened big time but the other one bieng Richards white one in Melbourne JPC300 on forum is not lightened at all I don't think. In fact I am pretty sure still has the big Duf Duf stereo although it was on slicks. What tonne of evidence? Do you mean what people say and feel. Depends what you classify as evidence? Do you mean what is said on fourms such as TTNET and theories with some dyno readings of some FMIC agianst other side mounts? Keep in mind different design intercoolers and cores and front bars etc Theories and tests and dyno results and track results. Who has tested in REAL time at the track other than us? There is input for and against both and results for both not none for one and tonnes for the other. Stick to some facts or at least facts about facts. If you really want to get specialist expert advice call Phil at PWR in Brisbane or in Sydney Mick from Micks Metalcraft, or Oyay from Plazmaman if you can get to them. Experts in this exact field and all with experience in racing and setting up race cars and all with expereince with zeds. Phill at PWR is probably best as he is setting up a circuit zed TT race car. Re 11 second zed with side mounts and stock turbo's. Slicks or not? I am sure I could have done this when I had 287rwkw when I had front mount and stock turbo's and they were the smaller auto ones. What power do these cars in USA have? But if you really believe what you are saying to yourself and want to run 11 seconds at least then get rid of your bling FMIC on your car and change to SMIC? Maybe your big FMIC is slowing you down? You can't race your theories at the track. I am sure you could find some candiates over there to swap unless your FMIC is not good design or made well and average core??
I believe they were running MT ET streets (Extremely Long!) DOT approved with tread just the same as your car was running so not the reason they are running much better times. Also hardly a leading question, "side mounts vs front mounts which are better?". Not only in that thread but every time it has been asked, these guys have said the same thing. Feel free to ask again if you like. I'l look for your post tonight on ttnet. For tonne of evidence (which has been told to you sooo many times now which you seem to gloss over): 1) Physically must have a very open front fascia. ANY blocking of flow in this style of intercooler will cause imbalance in cooling and loss of power. This is FACT, demonstrated in my setup on dyno. Easily measured difference in air temp between banks. Measured pressure difference between banks with MAP sensors. HUGE hole in torque curve with power loss. This was only fixed by having a very large diameter (in comparison to stock balance bar) balance tube in front of the throttle bodies and changing the front bar. The effect of uneven flow is undisputeable in my books. 2) Effect of same side banks with turbo. "the amount of exhaust produced is proportionate to the amount of fuel/air ingested. If the left bank's turbo produced more boost for an instant, the right bank of the engine would receive more air and produce slighly more power for an instant- and that would generate more exhaust and spin the right turbo slightly faster- which would in turn make the left side of the engine produce more power for an instant, which would feed the left turbo again. The cycle would then repeat, and the differential between the sides would be minimal." Having it on the same side can cause a run away effect on the bank and leaning out. Keep in mind the diameter of the balance pipe required to keep up with the flow problems I had. Do you really think the tiny stock balance pipe is going to cover this? 3) Pressure drop. Discussion on pressure drop in front mount intercoolers Every psi of pressure you lose to your intercooler means that psi has to be produced extra to what your boost gauge is reading. So if you want to make 20 psi and your losing 5 psi of pressure across the intercooler then your turbos are making 25 psi to keep up! This means they are making a lot more heat, soaking your intercooler faster and losing their benefit. 4) Blocks flow to the radiator. Always an important issue despite the size of your radiator. 5) Dyno evidence: Back to back front mount vs side mount. fmic: 381rwhp 425rwtq smic: 395.5rwhp 443rwtq all on stock turbos + race gas 6) How much more volume do you really get? Do you really get the volume increase you think??? 7) Real world proof, not artificial dyno readings. A) Fastest 300zx I know, with FULL interior runs side mounts. B) Second fastest 300zx I know, runs sidemounts. C) The only cars Ive seen run 11s runs with stock turbos use sidemounts (maybe some use front I just havent seen them myself) D) SGP, Z1, Specialty Z, the three biggest in the US recommend side mounts over front mounts. This has been asked and answered by them on many occassions. 8) To fit requires: much more cost, loss of carbon cannister, new front bar or extensive modding to old one, radiator upgrades vs stock mounting point of sidemounts. The ONLY proof I have seen that they are better is that you have told me you think they are and that other guys who are not 300zx builders agree with you. Plus you have measured the end temp as being less which we have seen from previous comparisons (Z1s intercooler comparisons, whos dyno pics are sadly no longer hosted), that it doesnt equate to more power. In my specific case if I had just fitted the front mount and done 2 dyno runs to check the A/F levels there would of been no way I would of known about the huge power loss it was causing. It was only because my car was being extensively dynod that the problem showed itself. I wonder how many others have never checked like that?? These are basically my reasons. If you can get some good evidence to the contrary Im more than willing to hear it. Either way I dont care as I have a front mount anyway. On the weight of your word alone however Im not planing on changing my opinion. Hopefully I havent mis stated anything for you but long day. BTW just so you know Im fairly certain that russels 1000hp car runs a side by side front mount intercooler.
If front mounts are so bad why have one? Why not have sidemounts and have an interfooler (to retain the look) hehe Next time someone asks about the difference between intercoolers, instead of just saying how much you think front mounts suck, explain how they can get around most of the problems. You said you couldn't be bothered going through all the reasons etc and to use the search, but as you can tell, the lack of information provided will cause you to post more and more on the subject then just going through it once. If you need to post, tell them everything, then say to use search for more info Your fisrt post 'Go with quality sidemounts. Much better for your car.' Is asking for a flame war (sadly) and will have people question why the hell you would have a frontmount after spending a fortune on your car. I know you say you like the look of them but hell, if I honestly believed them to be as detrimental and bad for the engine/turbos + loss of power as you do, i'd stay away from them. How about this for next time the question is asked FMIC requires: Aftermarket front bar for more air flow relocate air pod(s) under the headlights vented nose panel radiator air guide radiator upgrade balance pipe vertical core front mount if you can get it (or proven good quality one as they are not all the same as each other) and the reasons why to do all the above. If you cant be bothered doing that, dont post at all. It was said earlier that no infomration is better than a little information. And then you will have resolved all (if not most) of the issues involved with front mounts. But of course requires much bigger $$$ then side mounts. Gotta go to work so cant check now, but do we have a FMIC vs SMIC in the tech section people can go to? Might be good to have an unbiased non flamed discussion about this subject for people to visit and list ALL pros and cons for both types of intercoolers. (not just say 'sidemounts are better or front mounts are better). PS, in your first question on the US forum you gave misleading information as you said It was a leading question and you misreprsented John in that statement anyway.
This is what was said word for word No manipulation from me. Z1 Stated By the way I have mentioned before real tests on the road with Lloyds car with Microtech and many others and we know generally they run a lot hotter and we know on the dyno they struggle to make same power as can't get as much advance timing. Plenty of data on this but stored in my and my techs neck top computers and on our dyno computer. This was also displayed and on our dyno day last year showing cars with FMIC and SMIC. Not quick or easy to dig all this up out of the computer and host it and then post. Re the pressure drop and again depends on brand and type of coolers comparing and car front bar etc. But in reality it is not a problem mine does not have any holes. Zisluv what does this mean or refering to? If you have issues with your car with your car then you may be getting confused with what and why. Also Zisluv I forgot another key player and in Welshpool Perth Grant At Performance Turbo's who I speak anddo biz with regularly. Talk with him but don't bull crap to him and be prepared for the truth if you can handle it. He has made plenty of tough zeds and all have FMIC. He made this. Tough Zed
I dont think anyone on the forum really intends to post everything on a common subject everytime it comes up. I think its enough to say the info is there. If your interested then you will search for it. If not then too bad. If people get shitty then no loss to me. If you take a look at the time I posted "I really cant be bothered explaining", its 1030pm EST on the 21.4. Well that was my birthday and we live in western australia. i.e. long day at work + night out + alcohol celebrating + past midnight and work in the morning = I cant be rooted doing somebody elses homework. If you look at my post to John : I believe they were running MT ET streets (Extremely Long!) then thats the sort of post Tek was wanting but it does take a while to sort the info and make a post like that. As for my opening post on tnnet, not misleading at all IMO, it was exactly what was said in regards to chilis car, and front mounts as a MUST for big HP.
Not exactly at all I actually think you cannot see what you sayor type. Re what yiou verballed me on re the innitial post you totally twisted as you do with me and others what I say. Now you say after being caught out you are saying not misleading and exactly what I said. It was NOT exactly what I said at all and it was not from lack of memory as you helped it along as yiou do to try and prove a point. Nathan give up drinking working too hard and typing. the other thing is some of the so called facts you are working on are what people are sying or so called testing which may or may not be A. the whole story and B. accurate? Keep in mind some of these forum flyers could be another Zisluv.
Gee, you have a short memory... you clearly said: a) Chilis car would gain 10-20kw with a front mount. I said wheres the proof which is what started the debate before. Now your denying this or taking it back? Chili said: You said: i.e 10-20 kw higher with a front mount over a side mount. This refresh your memory? b) You said, and have stated again, that front mounts MUST be used for high HP cars. So how is that twisted? I think John, instead of trying to be insulting as usual because you cant make a good argument, how about concentrate your efforts on points 1-8. Your reply to that was non existant as usual. Or better yet why dont you go out and start getting some numbers like you said you were going to last time.
Iv'e changed my mind After all this debate, and the pros and cons, iv'e decided to go for a top mount intercooler and enjoy all the heat soak.:LOL::LOL::LOL:
Why didn't you include the rest of the information in the quote Here was the full quote: You forgot about the less heat and more timing bit.
isn't that what i said? maybe i've misunderstood you, but my point was that since there is only one big plenum that feeds all the cyclinders, there is no balance issue.
Re: isn't that what i said? MAybe we misunderstood each other John :LOL: I spose my point was that provided you can equalize the plenum pressure properly, they should work fine. I think a balance tube prior to the Throttle bodies and also the existing one at the back should be plenty. For example if one side is at 20psi and the other is at 22psi. The existing balance tube would be fine as the differential isnt all that big. Now if there was 20psi difference I would have doubts its enough. Does that make sense?
excellent work! look forward to seeing the details. you are right. theory is good and all, but given the nonlinearity of the problem at hand (damn those intangible navier-stokes equations!), maybe asking a bit much to extrapolate from rules of thumb. real world data is what we need! would it be possible to datalog IC inlet and outlet temperatures and pressures against rpm? also will need ambient temperatures for each run. for both banks if possible (this would be very valuable to see difference between top and bottom bank for front mount). would also be very useful to see these figures for dyno and street/track runs. are those dyno fans really any use? While interesting, there are too many variables that go into power figures. as such i don't think they are as valuable for comparison. as for post sidemount venting, couldn't modifications be made to vent to wheel well. this is also a low pressure zone, which would make it ideal as it would tend to suck air through.
I been toying with putting vent slits in the bonnet ala E type Jag To promote a little more flow through with the FMIC. I am not sure how much negative pressure it will creat but should be better than stock. I will also be trying Electric cooling fans, as I have to purchase a new Fan gather and clutch/blade assembly. I will make a custom alloy fan gather and use a 16 inch fan to pull the air through. As soon as the chassis comes back from the Panel beaters I will be into all this. I don't want a 6 month project if I can avoid it.
No he didn't Shifter. I did not say 10 to 20 rwkw although close to and the key is what you left out that is with more timing and Lloyds car does NOT have stock turbo's which you stated he did. You are getting predictable at least but why are you doing this? Wizard wait until we develop our Roof mount intercooler I have been planing, TRUCK size too. J4PLAY yes our UAS front bar we desgined in 1996 and some have copied and has exit vents to help with this. Tektrader69 I am not sure what if we are on the same channel.
