Feel the difference - 3" SS SuperSplit DP & 3"/2.5" SS TP

Oooops

Sorry Chrispy.

Sometimes I get on a role and don't put pauses in where they should.

It does make for an easier read and it's easier on us old fellas eyes ....LOL.

Should I go back to my last post and correct?



:zlove:

 

Just a thought.

On another note, something else came to mind. And let me first say that this is in no way meant to be derrogative or condescending towards those people.
Are those that are trying to, in some sort of fashion, trying to negate the efforts and success of AMS have sort sort of reason for doing so?
Are these same people also strong advocate members on tt.net?
Have they been swept up by the tt.net mindset on how to view certain circumstances or new vendors?
Are they perhaps scared to speak out against the mainstream there for fear of future ridicule?
Those that were brave enough to speak out against the mainstream comments were quickly put back in line by the rest of the membership.
I firmly believe that had I not mentioned any specific company name (AMS) or person (Vuk) or made any references to any brand whatsoever, that I would have recieved a much more positive response similar to this Forum. It would have been assumed by that membership that I was installing the SZ components and that there would have been an overall sense of acceptance.
Had I later mentioned the true origins and brand name than I think all hell would have broke loose.
Those members here that might fall into that category might want to ask themselves why such a drastic change in thinking should occur.
My only guess is the old brand/maker loyalty.
Is that loyalty so strong to create such a ferver that leads those to be mean, condescending, vindictive and outright cruel?
Questions only those individuals can answer I suppose.

There are some here who use the same screen name on tt.net. I do vaguely remember your comments on my thread. I don't hold grudges or bear any mallice whatsoever. That would be pointless. We're all Z enthusiasts and share something in common and we should always keep that in the forefront of our dealings with each other. So please, don't think I have sort sort of agenda in those regards. This is a great community here and I wouldn't want it an other way.

 

The fact you think we would have all assumed you were installing SZ components kinda proves the point I was making, no?

Lol.

Read back to my first post. If that hadn't of been posted in your first thread I would have said nothing.

:zlove:

 

I see. Perhaps a poor choice of words on my point (engineering), nonetheless, you did focus in on that. Which is exactly my point. You were not focusing on the install of new products on the market but moreso on the makers. Hence my questions in the previous post.

Sabrewolf followed very close behind (another tt.net member) with a post that really didn't offer anything beneficial other than to make light of your post in the ridicule of AMS. What's the point to all of that in the first place? It serves no benefit to the membership here. At least none that I can see. It's not my place to change your mind and I would never attempt to do so. I would however ask that people keep an open mind.

 

I made no comments on that ttnet thread.

I've been a member of ttnet for as long as I have because it is a great technical resource, not because of brand loyalty or some other nonsense.

I don't think being a ttnet member somehow changes my view of this in any way.

It's a blatant copy. Asking me to keep an open mind on that is impossible. I disagree with it. Until the point AMS steps forward with evidence of R&D or similar, I will continue to hold the view. Should they do, I will revoke all my comments and apologise, but I think we both know thats not going to happen.

I think this discussion (argument?) is over. Let it die. Like you said it achieves little.

:zlove:

 

I guess you missed my replies on 3ZC?

The tests we conducted showed superior flow! The test conducted by the AMS hater (as witnessed by his sig) showed inconsequential differences with his one ported head??? Our tests were conducted with the manifolds alone - very different test indeed!

For those interested

http://300zxclub.com/showthread.php?t=129376&highlight=ams

I will say it again - the only real difference is price!

Regards,

Vuk@AMS
www.amszstore.com

 

Understood, fair enough. I can appreciate your need to have proof of R&D by the sig pic where it looks you place high demands on your Z for AutoX. Is that sort of posture applied to your adjustable control arms, shock, springs, exhaust, etc, etc...? How do you get all that data from those vendors? Speaking of control arms. How many of those SPL type adjustable control arms are there out there? Wouldn't you agree that for the most part they look alike? Do you honestly think that every one of the vendors that provides parts for our Z's is going to have detailed data on R&D?
Wouldn't you be more interested to see the fit and finish of the product, the performance of the product, the cost of the product? Are these are what really matters?
Even after seeing the quality of the finished product from my pics, the installation ease, my personal initial feedback from driving, the flow test reults, and after a dyno run (to be scheduled), wouldn't that suffice as to the integrity of this product?
Perhaps, if the concern fo R&D information is so great, so pivotal, so primary in the acknowledgement of this product, why not just email AMS for that info?
I think any rationale Z parts consumer is not going to get wrapped around the axel about whether a certain product has R&D information readily available to the public. Rather, I think most makers would closely guard that information, lest someone of a keener mind finds a way to adjust some of his methods to produce a better product. So there's a few ways to look at it.
To say it's a "blatant copy" withot even holding one in your hands and having it's counterpart right beside it is pretty bold.


BTW, here's something I picked up a while ago. Perhaps since you have such a keen eye, you can tell who makes it?

 

Haha that requires effort, plus I dont have an account there. They'll all wake up eventually trust me, but these dumbass consumers need to quit playing favouries. At the end of the day well designed custom manifolds would totally blows those cast iron pieces of shit out of the water anyway I guarunteee it.

And to AMS if for some magical reason you ever read this, quit making benchmark comparisons against your competition. You knew that would stir up shit, *no shut up, you knew it would* so simply get your comparitive parts tested indepedantly. Infact do it three times at three different places and then let people make up their own mind.

And to MSP, hey you retards how about you try to improve your design and then do your own NEW tests? Again no comparing anything to anyone, just run independant tests and again let people use the data to make their own decision.

Both of you knob head companies need to wake up. This is some Coke and Pepsi bullshit, who's better? Neither, they both suck and rott your teeth or in this case drain your wallet with expensive, mass produced off the shelf junk.

 

If you sieve through all the vendor bashing some interesting points come up.

1. The head is the restriction for flow, not the manifolds, so testing on a head is not such a bad idea.

2. No one has tested properly ported/extrude honed manifolds to see if the expense of the MS/AMS manifolds is justified at all.

3. Someone suggested that a drop in exhaust size from 3' to 2.5' in beneficial. All my motorsport advisors says it does not and the less restriction for a turbo engine the better.

Food for thought.

 

i agree on the piping, i typed up a reply disputing jsc's comments regarding that, then deleted it cos i didn't want any more negative posts against him in this thread hehe but i reckon its a bit silly to think that a downstream contraction in pipe diameter can lead to an upstream drop in pressure if anything it'd increase backpressure. Also take into account that the justification for it is that the exhaust gases cool, well in fact they cool along the whole length of the exhaust, so why is the exhaust going from 3" to 2.5" over a small section of length about 1 foot long? Also, just going by the relationship PV/T, you are saying that if T goes down then you should decrease V (volume) by the same amount, but how about just keeping it the same and letting P (pressure = density) decrease instead? The other factor, is that flow against a restriction leads to a pressure drop, but you can't drop atmospheric pressure, so it leads to a backpressure increase against the turbine... if you increase exhaust flow, for a given restriction (ie mandrel bend or bad flange joint) then you'll have a greater pressure drop. If you are flowing the same amount of exhaust gases, then you are increasing flow speed by decreasing cross-sectional area of your piping

 

I'm curious, since i see some of you guys have been around this a lot longer than me, perhaps you can answer a question of mine.

When the MSP manifolds were released, was it met with the same amount of skepticism?

 

I considered the tt.net member test to be a better as it (in my mind), was more "real world". Sure they were put on modified heads with bigger valves etc, but both manifolds used the same heads under the same conditions, so how does it make a difference? And thats how they are on the car, not just flowing air through a pipe like the AMS tests. If my thinking on this is floored then I do apologize, just the way I read it.

As for the reason I am anti AMS, its not because I've had some troubles with them in the past, I actually have some tail lights on the way from them, it's their lack of acknowledgement that these are copies. Like ZDUCTIV said, if they had simply mentioned they took MS mani's and "improved" on them, alot of people would care very little, me included. The fact that they came out claiming the manifolds to be their design when clearly its not was poor business practice.

I think we should also let this thread die, peoples beliefs obviously arent going to change, and thats their right, I also think its fair that we (well ZDUCTIV mostly) pointed out our point of view as something for people to consider.

Thats my 2 cents

 

I'd love to see a piccy of the stock mani's, the MSP's and the AMS ones all next to each other. Be curious to see how different the aftermarket ones are to the standards. Anyone got or seen a piccy?

Looking at you Steve, you seem to be up to speed more than most.

 

Yes Chrispy we get it

They all look the same. It doesnt matter imho. All side mount intercoolers look very similar, does that mean Greddy, HKS, Z1 and so on all copied Nissan's design and should be getting sued? Its more about the timeline and not giving credit where credit is due.

 

All comments in this thread by me are in reference to SZ 3" vs AMS gear. The manifolds were only brought up because someone mentioned a link.

Your ttnet profile says Stillen type 1...

Seems like a baited question, but I'll be your fish.





I don't believe I've ever made a comment on the MS v AMS manifolds. I saw the independent testing, saw they flowed more, and couldn't have cared less about the ttnet BS. I'm not up to the stage of buying manifolds so I didn't look into it. Just fyi. Ignore the part at the bottom of the picture. I didn't add it.

 

Not a baited question as such, but many thanks for the piccies. Not having a go at you, but the mani's where brought up and you know your stuff in regards to the tt.net crowd. I don't frequent there much as I find most of the US forums objectionable.

Looking at the 3 manifolds there are only slight difference between the lot. There is obvious difference between the AMS and MSP mani's, but both are undeniably based off the standard item. Just throwing it out here, maybe AMS got the standard manifold, made it's improvements and got it into production quickly. Just pulled their fingers out so to speak. They saw a big market that only had one product to choose from and saw some dollars if they could get a competing product out there quick.

The MSP mani's where a long drawn out affair (18 months wasn't it?), it really wouldn't take long to improve the standard design if you applied a few people for a month or two, send it over to China/Korea/Taiwan and make a few hundred in 2 weeks. Done.

 

It's really a shame John's post has come down to the manifold debate again. Oh well here are some pics



The above pic has been used in some content and was "photo-shopped" (see Zeductiv's post below) as part of a failed smear campaign - I will just leave it at that.

From the picture you can see the runner differences (size) and no relation to the picture the culprits used

Below are some pics of the Stock vs. AMS:







I've said it before and I'll say it again! Consumers are the ultimate winner with competition

I have plenty more pics and the independent flow tests for those interested!

Regards,

Vuk@AMS
www.amszstore.com

 

I can appreciate your point of view on some things. And there may be better flow capabilites with the MSP ones based on the one side test by a tt.net member. But that test won't guarantee my MSP manifolds will flow the same since my heads are not ported and I don't have 1mm OS valves. So, am I getting the same benefits as those tt.net flow numbers? I don't think so - who knows - it's an unknown, that's wy I referred to that test as flawed and incomplete. That won't stop me from keeping my MSP manifolds on. They're a great manifold.
What's really quite funny is the criticism of the AMS's flow test methods. If one was to take a closer look, the MSP ones were also tested in the same manner. It's a direct apples to apples comparison. If I'm not mistaken, I believe I saw on tt.net a flow test where MSP's, OEM's and some inconnel manifolds were compared. Again, same sort of bench testing method. Have you or anybody seen flow tests results directly from MS? If so, were any of those tests done on a set of heads? I don't think they exist or else someone would have produced them by now.

"Lack of acknowledgemnet that they are copies"???? That's what it's all about??? If that's the case, why go to such efforts via other means to downplay their quality? Of course they are a copy, just like in the same sense that MSP ones are of the oem ones. Everyone can see that, what's your point. Perhaps it's just semantics. Do you think MS is going to stand up and say his are copies of the OEM ones? - NOT. I'm sure he studied the MS ones and then did his own R&D and then had his own castings made. So it all boils down to AMS making statements of originality for the tt.net community to accept his product? I don't think it's as simple as that. MS wasn't expected to do a dance like that so why should AMS? I guess it also means that it wasn't because of good quality, great price and good availability. Strange criterea for acceptance of a new product, don't you think?
Saberwolf, I don't think it's fair to try and shut down this thread. You and your friends saw to it in tt.net to erase almost everything I've posted because they are not AMS fans. Why is it so important to you to want to shut this thread down? I believe there is merit in here until the ani-AMS people jumped in. They did it in tt.net, they tried in 3ZC and now here. Like I mentioned earlier, such vigor should be channeled to a more positive direction.

So, getting back on topic, how do you like the new DP's and TP's?

 

I liked the originals so its obvious I like the design of these ones...

Lol.

What upper arms are they btw. Don't look like the Stillens I remember seeing.

Look more like TBO/Midori. Midori are sealed, TBO aren't.

 

They "appear" identical to my PZP ones... Just different colour on the lock rings

jschrauwen (is that your real name? It's hard to spell... Are you from the 'french side'? ) I think that there are very few anti AMS people here (if they are they are behaving themselves ) and I don't think that anyone is trying to shut your thread down, it's all remained very civilised, so it will stay.

And yes, your dumps are very pretty :zlove: Is there any exhaust shops in North America that actually get mufflers, bits of pipes and a welder and make exhaust systems? Everyone appears to just buy one off the shelf... I remember that Chad had a custom set of dumps and exhuast made not too long ago with nice long wastegate pipes that could be removed to make it into a screamer.