CHILI's Microtech ECU Dyno Run 27/1/05

Does it only measure one side?.....>>

Would it be possible to fit a second one to the other side with a switch to get a comparison?

 

Yes but

Not an easy job. The hp or kw is measured at both back wheels and more than any other zed we have seen with stock turbo's so regardless of tests and any confusion the facts are there.
Re Z1 if inlet temps are much lower with FMIC than corner mounts then how do you explain same power?
Pressure drop is mentioned and this can be confused even if taken directly before and after the intercooler, as if intercooler is working well then there will be a pressure drop as hot air has higher pressure than cooler air. If no pressure drop then intercooler no good. Then there is pressure drop from too many tubulators, too many sharp bends in tanks or pipes with rough edges etc. There can be a big difference in intercooler design and smoothness of air flow as well as core type and quality and efficiency. You usually get what you pay for when it comes to cores.
By the way a quote from Forced Induction and Tuning,
" As a general rule every 1000ft increase in altitude reduces 3% in hpand 1 % loss for every 7C increase in air temperature. So if inlet temps were say 15C cooler that is around 6rwkw in Chili's case and the inlet temp difference might actually be more than this and this is without advancing the timing which can double that so 10rwkw plus is more than possible.
The only way I would go corner mount is if they were like the ones on Keith Carlings ZEDTT sports sedan link below. They were around the same size and volume each of 1 normal FMIC but tube chassis sports sedan.
http://nismo.com.au/images/KEITH_C_ZTT_FRONT_2.jpg

 

Here you go John. I posted on ttnet for you...

so far no one there agrees with you either. That includes the owner of Z1 motorsports, second hand info from SGP racing, plus the fact Kyle from Specialty zed runs 10s on his car on side mounts.
I really encourage you to have a read merely to get a balanced perspective as well as others browsing this thread. Some good technical info as well as debate.
Thread here: side mount vs front mount debate
Interesting thread on UAS pressure drop here (applies to all front mounts but they are discussing the UAS one) pressure drops

 

Yep saw that

Years ago. As he says this is all theory although has some basis. The actual results don't say this though as I keep saying from our hard data and loads of dyno runs stored on our computer. Also this was back in 03 with our first design FMIC using heavy bar and plate core and stainless pipes and end tansk not as nicely tappered as now. If you also search you should find post from me on ttnet with our hard data at the track which I have also mentioned on the old aus300zx forum with our tests at Eastern Creek showing the prsssure drop, but also how good the intake temps were. This is with stock turbo's although squeezed hard putting out at the time around 270rwkw out of the smaller auto turbo's. Driving flat doing quite a few hot laps, with Wizard watching the lap top checking the Autronic computer inlet tempst when going around the track were only 3 to 4C above ambient and down the straight around 7 C more. Try and get smaller side mounts to do that. It does have some basis as I mentioned on this thread FMIC with verticle core is better by having more tubes and would have less pressure drop and be more efficient. We have plans of doing these.

I also saw on the ttnet your post about FMIC and corner mounts and you again got your facts wrong as you said Chili has stock turbo's. You also did not mention it has a programmable computer and not only less temps but more timing. Also I did not say 10 to 20 rwkw I said it should make 280 to 290rwkw with our FMIC it made 271.9rwkw with our side mounts. Paint a picture if you must but please try and get the facts right and tell the whole story.

I found the reply on ttnet years ago re these UAS FMIC tests at the track. TTNET FMIC TEST LINK.

 

Well

They talk about the CRAY supercomputer and years of research that went into designing the Zed. In that case, why does anyone bother getting aftermarket parts and still do R&D into them?

Do you really have a big pressure drop on a FMIC on a race track or drag when your constantly on boost etc?

Who has FMIC, high HP, using the stock front bar and radiator anyway? On mine also the air pods have been relocated to the corner so they get cold air (not behind the intercooler where they would normally be).

Also, the vented panel between the headlights and the radiator air guide make sure the radiator gets the colder outside air too.

Your concerned about the balancing of pressure etc so you put in a balance pipe. Good for you, so you CAN also reduce that effect. Mostly, you just like to say 'you get uneven pressures'.

They worry about the cooling system? Well I have NEVER had a problem with mine. I can also see to what degree the temps of the water is.(not just going by the stock temp guage).

There is nothing wrong with a properly set up FMIC. Yes it costs more money to do though. The old arguments can be significantly reduced.

You always want the best information possible (eg for the newbies who come on here and do a search looking for info). I suggest, that next time you get off your high horse, stop being opposite to certain members (we know how you love arguments then complain not much good info comes out) and put forward BOTH sides regarding debates. ie pros and cons for each type of intercooler. Not just pros for sidemounts and cons for front mounts. Thats stupid.

You said on tt.net that not much useful info is coming out in this forum regarding this debate. Learn to read then. Oh thats right, you cant read anything you cant agree with oops, silly me :wacko:

Lastly, when you said to John

Well apart from being wrong and that he does have data to back him up, here is a few things you have stated in the past (as fact not needing any data)

'3" exhausts are as droney as hell' (ALL 3" exhausts Nathan? Where is your data??)
'a front mount is a front mount' (implying that all FMIC on the market are pretty much the same. cough bulls&%t cough)
'cooler engine if running colder thermostat' (saying that your engine will run cooler with these. Well only if you drive like a baby all the time. If I went to the track and flogged the crap out of the car, will I be running those few degrees cooler?)
'hub dynos read the same as roller dynos' (well even the guy who owned the hub dyno says they read higher by around 15kW. But what does he know hey?)
'I consider the heads part of the block' (what can I say but HAHA)

Not to start other debates but just clearly shows your hypocritical nature. But if you slander other people and make false statements, then this is fair game. I dont think you had ANY data to back up those claims either. But I guess you dont need to cause you got a science degree so know about cars etc.

Maybe when people search this, they know to take your opinions with a grain of salt. (or a pillar) Which IMO wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

The position of the air intake temp sensor may be measuring the

cooler of the two intercooler tanks in the FMIC. As ZisLuv has mentioned with a horizontally split FMIC one side of the intake will be much cooler than the other so maybe your temp sensor is measuring the cooler tank of the FMIC. Food for thought.

 

Using the Z1 figures, there maybe more than 1hp difference ...>>

available on the dyno. The tests would be using the same tune for all tests. JP said that with cooler charged air temps they could program more advance.

We don't have any data to say how much could be gained by tweaking the timing.

 

lol shifter, what a joke, very poor attempt IMO

The questions your asking about pressure drop means you havent bothered to read any of the posts at all on the subject. Please do so if you expect someone to bother replying.

Why do I need to state the pros and cons of both? Im not the one who has said a front mount will give 10-20kw more, nor that it is a must for high hp cars, track cars etc. My position is that there is no benefit of a front mount over good side mounts except for looks so why would I say differently?

John has made claims and I just want to see some further proof. Him saying that he sees larger numbers on different cars without ever doing a before and after doesnt constitute any form of proof IMO. It has nothing to do with who is posting the question, which you seem so caught up on, it has to do with the fact that I think sidemounts are a better choice and people should be aware of the info on this.

As a general rule thats completely correct, whats your problem? You wont find anyone to agree with you there.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is not a lot of difference. Compare the UAS one to the TTZ one for instance. Explain to me the differences if you can.

lol asked and answered by our local expert spot who agreed colder thermostats make colder engines. Even got the
whoops I was wrong" from Egg. Guess you missed that one, must of been sleeping hey

Actually Ive got an email from dynapack USA on this, I was just waiting for some more info before posting. The only reason it will shoot higher in their opinion is due to innacuracy in the roller dyno. I will post more on this later.

Heads are part of the long block, disagree?

Shifter, even for you that was the most ill informed post Ive ever bothered reading. You really need to stop taking dictation from John and start reading for yourself. If your going to attack me as being uncredible, my god, at least quote things that Ive said wrong, lol what a joke.

 

Yep good point. So what do we need?.........

Some more dyno tests! Please see my first post

I think throwing in the variables of changes in tuning would make it very complicated. Personally the first thing Id like to see is any change in a direct swap as claimed. The one set of real data we have doesnt support this. I'm all for seeing another.

 

Yep i agree......

JP send those SMs to Nathan and let him conduct the tests, its the results that we are after thats important? Correct? I want SMs but before i buy i want to see what type of difference it will make.

Max:thumbsup:

 

Can UAS donate me those SMIC's after Zisluv is done testing? plz :zlove:

 

Dyno day

Those at our zed dyno day saw the inlet temps onour dyno of cars with corner mount then front mounts so ask them.
Looks like we will have to do this test when opportunity arrives next. Yes to do a proper test is same car same day, same amount of runs and more than a few runs to show the real difference here. This will back up my general statements of what we have found.
Yes it is odd I am accused of making sweeping statements but at least they are right and tell the full story. Again to clarify I did not say 10 to 20rwkw gain and from intercoolers alone and was talking generally not specific with other statements, is this not OK. Also some asking for proof and dyno readings do I need to remmind how often we do publish facts and findings and many dyno readings. Show me a website in Australia at least or even USA with smilar data for imports and zeds?
Here is ours and growing.

 

Yeah my bad

I didnt really feel it was neccessary in the post to explain every little detail as not relevant. I believe I summed up your opinion correctly though. So its not just me that disagrees with you on this, the major 300zx shops in the US do also, with some good reasons as do the members. Hope you dont feel it personal now, as I do have a basis for my opinion, Im not just arguing for arguments sake.

Lots of very good points brought up on ttnet, care to comment on any? I thought in terms of real world results youd be interested in that 10 second zed with side mounts.

 

Nice try FranZ :LOL:

 

**HiJacked Thread**?!! Nice Power Figures CHILI :zlove:

 

Your good for laugh, I'll give you that

Nathan, those quotes were made by you. You must admit that they are broad generalisations in which you provided NO DATA to back them up yourself. (which you complain if others do, for example,

when you say '3" exhausts are as droney as hell.' Thats a generalisation yes? You told the person to stay away from that size exhuast due to the fact it will be droney. You never mention that there are ways and types of exhausts etc to NOT BE droney. Typical of you to leave the facts out

Colder thermostats in normal driving I will agree will lower the water temps. Try doing a few hard laps at a circut on a reasonably hot day and tell me you'll run cooler. Besides, why would you want your water temps cooler than normal anyway? Dont you just wear the engine out a tad quicker?

I see on other forums boy racers wanting the biggest and best front mount intercooler on the market. (for there reasonably low powered car) I agree that that is excessive and will really only give them more lag. (unless they are hoons driving crazy)

[QUOTE Zisluv]nor that it is a must for high hp cars, track cars etc. My position is that there is no benefit of a front mount over good side mounts except for looks so why would I say differently?[/QUOTE]

I would be interested in seeing what intake air temps these track cars in the US have recorded.

Anyway Nathan, on the TTZED website I found this info regarding FMIC's

Hmmm, all lies I suppose?

Anyway you often complain no good information comes out. Well thats true when people generalise and leave out facts which you get an A+ in

Just remember you made all those quotes and you still said that the hub dyno read the SAME as roller (with none of your own data to back it up. Just string a few words together and hope for the best). You still say that 3" exhuasts are droney as hell, So you still think a colder thermostat will give you colder water temps around the track on a hot day eh? Again you generalise here and mentioned nothing of the aperture size when debating. ALL front mounts created equal hey? I had no idea mine was the same as yours, which is the same as everyone elses front mount. Another bold generalisation statement. Again you leave out facts and dont say why you think they are all the same. You just say they are all the same. Well now I want the data you obviosly have on this. And every single thing you state in future.

Your the master of ill informed. Maybe I have read too many of your posts :wacko:


Anyway as I said earlier I will check air temp sensor readings when 'driving hard' today well (staying within the speed limits) the air temp sensor stayed within ambient air temps.
Ambient temps were around 21 degrees when driving. Air temps sensor were 19 (normal driving) and 21 when I put the foot down hard

In the afternoon while driving the ambient air temps were around 30-32 degrees. Air temp sensor stayed around this. Unfortunatly I couldn't drive it hard all the time as I reach the speed limit too quick But I can tell you my air temp sensor has NEVER been over 40 degrees when the car is moving. I guess my front mount works okay then. And what a shock, I didn't even need to spend 3 times teh money on a colder thermostat to have it run at a safe temperature. And I even have a front mount!!!

 

see if you guys just bought NA's these arguements wouldnt happen..

 

Agreed

but it might just be replaced by more underdrive pulley debates :embarrassed::LOL:

 

Nice run Chili! :thumbsup:


And to the others debating the FMIC vs SMIC... you really should have paid the respect to the thread starter and opened your own debate thread on this matter.

 

I always read the funnies in the paper for a bit of a laugh,but now i just

log on and read some of the posts :LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::LOL::zlove: