hang a sec nathan if you compress stream it turns back into to water. you getting off the track . try again . you compress h2o and then the oxygen and hydrogen begin to splitt. but once it the pressure goes it goes back to water. then it will turn back to steam. shadow wondering if he should pour some water down nathan's inlet track just to see nathans face.
Not quite. Water always remains as a molecule of two atoms of hydrogen strongly bonded to one atom of oxygen, whether it is in the solid, liquid or gaseous state. The only thing that can change that is a nuclear reaction, not a chemical reaction or heat. Because water molecules have a specific shape (boomerang shaped, with the hydrogen atoms at either end), it allows for attraction between two or more molecules, which is why water likes forming drops. When the temperature of the water exceeds 100C, the energy in the vibration of the individual molecules exceeds the weak link between the molecules, and the weak links break, allowing the individual molecules to bounce around freely (steam).
lol always a great informative discussion with you Dangerous Yes I agree with what your saying mostly. The volume of gas cant be less than the volume of water, well at least not at any pressures the internals would handle anyway. So I guess compression of a sizeable volume in either state would cause failure. However you will find that water as gas is compressible past the point it will return to liquid. As I said before this is at 647 degrees kelvin. This is the critical temperature of water and it cannot return to liquid form under any pressure. Google search "critical temperature of water" and you will see exactly what I mean. So with your points in mind I agree that during the compression stroke the volume of water molecules cannot be altered as its in a fixed space, and this will cause damage if enough water. But think about this then. Water will only enter with the intake valves open and only so much water can enter in this given period. With higher RPMS the time interval of the intake valve being open is much less, hence less water can enter the cylinder. Now the smaller volume of water entering is vaporised due to high combustion temps and remains as gas (as its above the critical point) during combustion. IF the volume is low enough such that compression pressures are not high enough to damage internals, then during the exhaust stroke then gas is completely expelled from the chamber, then during the intake phase new liquid enters and is repeated. This would clear all the water in the intake. However same situation with low rpms, valve is open longer hence more water enters, more chance of sufficient water to cause pressures that damage the internals. Plus water cannot be ejected from the cylinder like a gas can so water remains behind and is added to in the next stroke by even more water. Due to the combustion temps being low this is not vaporised and the now large volume of water cause hydrolock. Your thoughts?
nice try but incorrect see my answer to Dangerous above and search on critical temperatures. Plus as Dangerous said your basic chemistry is not correct either. If you just leave the sarcastic remarks to Chili, then feel free to join in with thoughts as we are all looking to learn something and no ones going to flame you for getting something wrong.
Yup, good fun to have discussions on something different However - - you need to be thinking about velocity of air/water intake, not time of valve opening. Higher inlet velocities mean more mass intake - whether it's air or water. More water will enter at high revs than low, not the other way around - similar to air. Re "water as gas is compressible past the point it will return to liquid, since we're obviously no longer talking about internal combustion engines, think about the centre of larger planets, and even the sun. Pressure can do nasty things, including break down the actual atomic structure, and squeeze neutrons and protons together - plug "Neutronium" into your googlemachine, and (ignoring the sci fi crap), see if you think steam would still remain steam, irrespecive of the pressure :sick::wacko: Critical temperature doesn't actually refer to a magical point where a gas turns into a liquid. With water for example, it refers to a temperature beyond which, although the water molecules as a gas can be compressed to a level where the density is the same as liquid water, there is too much vibrational energy of the molecules to permit them to align as they do when forming a liquid. Once again, the mass is still the same, and at the critical temperature, the volume is the same, or similar. As far as the piston and conrod are concerned, it doesn't know if it's steam or liquid water doing the damage - the damage is being done.
That sounds pritty good I think youve misunderstood what I was saying about critical temperature though, merely that the steam cant be converted back to liquid at that temperature no matter the pressure, which you now agree with I take it. Thanks for the info.
just throwing a spanner in the works how much energy does take to compress water into steam.I.e the poor zeds rods wont take the compresion nor will the spark plug threads. shadow
Err, I don't think I ever actually "agreed or disagreed" with steam being converted to liquid under varying temberatures and pressures, as it wasn't central to the discussion, and it has no bearing on the end result. It's still going to be there, whether a scientific definition refers to it as a "liquid", or a "gas at post critical temp conditions". There's some wierd and intriguing exceptions in nature, and our understading of it. Mercury being liquid at room temp, but still a metal for example - logical arguments that glass and lead are liquids, because of some of their inherent properties. If I was paying a hefty engine rebuilding bill because the engine inhaled a chunk of water, I don't think I'd be in the mood to hypothesize on what temperature and pressure the H20 was at, at the time things went horribly wrong :wacko::sick: Interested to hear how your water injection goes though. Do the manufacturers suggest experimenting with spark plug heat ranges? With on demand water injection, the max plug temps experienced would be expected to drop a fair bit, wouldn't they?.
Hydraulic lock A month or so back on the teli was footage from the floods up in northern NSW and showed a truck drving through the flood waters slowly. Being merky water the dirver could not see where the road was exactly and the truck dropped into a big hole off the side of the road. It sucked up a mouth full of water and you could actually see steam and looked like water come out his verticle stack ( exhaust )up the side of the cab. I bet my house he now has new rods as it would have hydraulic locked a beuty.
This was the bit i was refering to It cannot return to liquid if its temp is higher than the critical temp. Heat ranges for spark plugs are meant to stay the same. When tuning you basically inject water until the engine is sounding like its starting to miss then back off a bit. Thats my understanding of it anyway. Will let you know how it goes.
But even past that critical temperature... Even past that critical termerature, you cannot compress the gas to less volume than it's equivalent liquid form would take up. Therefore once you have injested more than 50 grams of water/steam (The approximate volume of the combustion chamber at TDC) you will exert enough force on the rod to cause it to bend, regardless of whether it is in steam or water form. Call it hydrolock or call it a 'steam piston powered zed', the end result is the same. AB
i have read some interesting comments regarding this post! one question i would like to ask , the engines you see with the big carby horns or runners on the top, must of allowed water in when racing in the rain. why didn't these engines hydraulic lock?
