Pikes peak is almost twice the height of Mt Kosciusko, for the record (4267m compared to 2228m above sea level).
Does driving in the eye of an extreme low pressure system, such as a cyclone mean that our cars would run rich(er)...
phark knows Guessing a really really low pressure system is around 980hPa. This puts you at a pressure height of only about 1000ft above sea level anyway. So your big cyclone only puts you 1/3 up to Mt Panorama in terms of pressure loss. Rich or lean... the maf and tune would accomodate for most of the difference easily.. past that point.. crikey.. thats maf vs map and tuning crap.. thats awesome internet forum mud slinging territory!
Perhaps on the edge of the eye, if you were facing the right direction, you could have a similar amount of ram air as would be seen traveling at 200km/h, but that would be picked up by the MAF, unless of course you had a piece of tree or house jammed in there at the same time. No, my concern would be in the eye, where it is extremely still, and has the lowest air pressure.
His Royal Highness Whats up yr arse tassiesuperkart?? LOL - I had already read your post. I read andys too and agreed with andys reasoning for needing egt on each cylinder as he explained, your allowed to disagree with us I guess. I guess you can do anything you like with any number of sensors. Whilst electronics are normally pretty good, its a simple fact the more you have, the more prone to a failure occuring somewhere in one of them. (I'm not however suggesting that it would be unreliable in context either), just stating the obvious fact. If it is really that cheap as you suggest it is then why arent all the Z owners already doing it, hell you could even make a business out of it and supply us all with a kit - lol. I am sure you could get a job for nissan at the least redesigning all there latest ECU's. You must have missed the "typical street car" part, but I suspect you were just being argumentative regardless, in order to establish or prove some point which I havent found yet in order to maintain some sense of professional heirachal complex group order thingy you have going on. I am actually by law allowed to speculate and agree with andymac's logic if I like as to why its impractical (even if its been done)- or maybe the association should only let you post to us all, we can all sit back and wait eagerly for your posts. I suspect your not a complete idiot....just some parts are missing as you stated. Seriously - you sound like you know what your talking about and could be helpful to all of us, I'm no expert racing mechanic but I know enough to realise your just being argumentative. You should however try not too much to sound so much, like a rude argumentative contentious overbearing self important ego tripping p---- Like everyone else speculating here, I reckon altitude would be make a reasonable and notable difference, I didnt calculate hectopascals or anything to work that out, so I guess I'm just speculating like the rest of us - lol Jamie (misszens other half)
Whats up my arse?? MY ARSE? You serious princess? You agree with his REASONING? very good. its always nice to agree with reasoning and speculation and arrive at.. i dont know, 2nd hand speculation... actually thats probably getting close to guessing but yes yes yes, of course your entitled to speculate or even guess! Just as Im entitled to point it out based on hands on experience. Im actually USING this stuff you sit there and say is impractical and prone to failure/unreliable (your own words) And you interpret this as "argumentative"... please! Actually, when it comes to such verbal bantering, plenty actually DO just sit back and await such dissertations!! R$eason is that I argue and debate, based on FACT, hands on experience, good old fashioned elbow grease, hard yards! Get ya hands dirty kinda shite! I dont sit back, keyboard warrior style and drag out funky phrases and terms from the latest online thesaurus to spice up my.... speculation. ya know, make it sound real intelligent like. You know, kinda beat the redneck Tasmanian about the ears with ya intelligence kinda guff and perhaps thionk that that kind of bollocks actually fits into the "bullshite baffles brains" pidgeonhole!!!!!!!! No sirree, so my initial analysis was actually correct, you are speculating and making statements based on someone elses...... ruminations/speculation? Furthermore, your getting all huffy about it because i dont pander to your Gen Y self rioteous sensititivity and point it out for all to see. Irritating isnt it! I just tell it how i see it. Its good fun being the very last of the baby-boomers generation! Were not afraid to say what we want to say when it needs to be said.... Not afraid to trample on illogical sensitivities to real world issues which the curent generation seem to ape so dearly. Chili is a shining example of such forthrightedness which i seriously admire and applaud!!!! Yes m8, I have PLENTY of experience with such " self tuning" clobber and YES it is cheap and affordable and yes, it is withing reach of most of the Zed comminity on here. YES, I know what Im talking about and yes, Im not backwards about coming forwards about it. Suck it up if you dont like it. No, i dont believe the manufacturers would be the slightes bit interested in my, or anybody elses such experience on the matter. What would be in it for them? Yes, this kind of stuff is PERFECTLY suitable for a mere "typical street car" which actually does include zeds. Dont go blowing too much sunshine up the Zeds arse and elevate it technically beyond its fairly modest technical level. its nothing that special, even at the time when it was actually modern. Hey, its altitude compensating since, like dozens of other ECU's, it IGNORES ambient pressure and looks solely at manifold pressure. WOW, Imagine that! Altitude compensation eh? Hey, well, thats nothing new. SU just to name one manufacturer along with many others, have been exploiting altitude compensation with their carburettors since before your daddy was an itch in his daddies ballbag! SU........ oh,, well bugger me, thats a brand of carbie isnt it?? Altitude compensating CARBIE??? Fancy that! a "samrt" carbie hawhawhaw!!! Well, sheesh, they operate on a constant depression principle. Hey presto! Altitude compensation BUILT IN!!!!.. No biggie! Been done for a hundred years or so!!! Google it. "Impractical" eh? well I and plenty of others are doing it NOW! We dont just dismiss thew entire concept based on some idle chitchat, we do some simple research and be enlightened dont we! Only THEN can we make informed decisions and be able to dismiss the entire concept outright as impractical and unreliable as you seem to insinuate... Hey, cool word eh? I didnt even need a tertiary education to drag that one up!!! My my, you "reckon" altitude would make a "reasonable and notable difference" without calculating it eh? Good man! Gold star for you!. That Whitenight snoozer has extensive and intimate knowledge with regards to altitude/pressure. His life can depend on it so.. nope, no speculation there. Ask him what he does for a living! "Individual" EGT's?? Mmmmmm well good thing about manufacturers is that they spend a gazillion dollars in R & D making fairly sure that airflow characteristics are pretty close across the entire engine to begin with. Especially with the likes of the Z32 with that funky and very expensive bit of inlert manifold kit. The benefits of which are largely lost on a TT but exploited nicely on an NA... I digress! So, unless the fundamental inlet design is a total dog, then for the vast majority of us, we can sit fairly comfortable with looking at EGT's as an average of all the cylinders!! I spose if your chasing in excess of 250BHP/Litre then it might be worthwhile to look at EGT's on an individual basis. Should show up a dodgey injector eh!!!!!! Now, whats all this blagh about all these funky sensors to get the system to adaptively learn then? Go on pal, you made the statement. Oh never mind, you DONT need them, in fact neither does any OEM setup either as the vast majority of "stuff" added to the EFI setup is largely a concession to emissions. Disconnect the bloody lot and just use some form of MAF or MAP sensing, crank agle reading and AWAY it will go!!!!, Oh allright, before you bleat, add a CTS as well so the ecu knows when to enrich for cold... that better? THAT is all you need Einstein, and to make the system adaptively learn, just add a WBo2 setup and its ALL you need. Neway, there are things you cant educate and your acting like one a bit so im out on this. Flame away if you like. Ill enjoy reading it anyway!!!! Cheers big ears E
Wouldn't a MAF tuned car automatically adjust to altitude and thinner air ? The less dense air would cool the hot wire less hence measuring less "air" and in turn less fuel, net result loss in performance but not running rich or lean.
I got on a bit of a roll... the red wine is working well.. I tried to edit it down some time later .... but after 30 minuts I have to ask an admin....... I was hoping not to draw their attention......!!!!!!!! L8r E
altititude adjusting SU's - lol thats a good one! you had me there for a minute! lol The red wine - thats what it is - lol i didnt say it was unreliable - read the post again I didnt say it didnt work - I said I read yr post - thats twice I said that now - lol Lol your actually quite funny, your actually speculating about me speculating and being critical of speculating at the same time, dont be so much of a hippocrite - lighten up mate lol - whiteknight says altitude does make a difference - lol - why would I question him if I agree with him - you dont make sense lol really - (consider your having too much wine??) LOL - Do you actually have SU's on your Z????? - is there relevance there or something I actually thought you sounded fairly cluey and just had an attitude of little man syndrome or something - but when I got to your altitude adjusting SU's you showed that your not really that clever after all and quite mixed up in some parts as you say. Heres why - This is a really simple basic fact you seem to have missed - yet its so obvious - but you really had me going for a minute with your fancy story - lol Manifold pressure is entirely different to altitude pressure, you actually consider things like humidity in altitude pressure, whereas its completely irrelevant in manifold pressure. To make it simple for even you to understand - Humidity is actually how much moisture is in the air, it affects ignition temperature, the amount of gases in the mixture and so it even affects things like the economy. etc - (honest its true - I know you may not believe it but its really actually and honestly true) Know matter how hard they try and the zillions they spend there are differences in cylinders (thats really true ) lol -Did you know that cylinders can have different compression ratios. lol Measuring each cylinder (EGT) you could can compensate for these individual differences in compression / individual air turbulance to cylinders / as well as being able to identify individual cylinder problems with spark plugs, valves and even a dodgy injector !! (or are you saying thats not correct???). If thats the case then measurements would be six times more accurate (six cylinders yeh - thats not really speculation is but more so maths isnt it). Might as well do that if your doing on the fly tuning since your going to all the trouble anyway. I wont be putting in auto tuning in my Z anyway - lol adaptive tuning is different - that i would consider You actually making me enjoy being so argumentative, which is a sad state and , even though theres no point arguing with you lol. So 10 gold bickies to you mr royal highness. You should do yourself a favour, try to drink less wine and stop being so argumentative and speculative lol even if you think your entertaining. Seriously dude - You actually had more respect from the 1st post you wrote until you got on your high horse and started rambling on about altitude adjusting SU's lol - (you should put that in wikipedia and enlighten the world - lol):rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: thanks for the fun anyway - and fill ya boots - lol! I'll talk to you when start talking sense again like your 1st post. Sincere Regards Jamie - lins other half PS youv'e been fun
Humidity is a result of air conditions not a cause. It is not considered as a factor of pressure height.
Both a MAF and a MAP tuned car will be fine regardless of altitude, and would not become rich. However, as everyone is discussing there is less air density and mass at higher altitudes, similar to hot days, and a car will not make as much horse power. NA car would be affected more than a turbo, as the turbo wastegate will adjust to try and keep the MAP at the preset. Also, a closed looped Lamba is essentially a self tune.
as someone who has driven through mountains I can say for a certainty you can feel altitude effects on the engine (NA for me at the time) I am under the impression that turbos suffer less from altitude starvation than NA engines.
Baaahahaha, im so glad you jumped onto that. Goes to show how gullible and easily led you are!!!! Its been fun verballing with you but, in closing, and i really mean closing now (for the flogged hores is truly dead). Never loose sight of the fact that.. (Ta-daaaahhh) I have extensive and actual years of experience with setup, commissioning, troubleshooting and glaring success with affordable auto/self/adaptive tuning clobber. (gloats) Perhaps i can share with you an AFR plot from one of my logs sometime? (more gloating) seflf praise is no praise at all i hear you thinking??? Meh! You have........ (clunk).... none at all!!! A glaring fact you have managed to dance neatly around with your tiresome braniac verbal bollockry designed purely to divert the casual observers attention AWAY from your ignorance on the subject discussed! You just... speculate in the end!! A Rote learner. Armchair expert! Heheheh! Good one dude! Oh, pardon me.. is that the sounds of crickets chirping in the night..............! The silence is defeaning me!!!!! Cheers/and out E
This is correct. Whitenight mentioned superchargers and turbos being developed to alow aircraft to fly at higher altitude. Also note the fact that a lot of the scandanavian cars use turbos- not because of the coild dense, air, but the elevations which these cars have to deal with. It's an interesting topic. Keep it up ladies and gentlemen
ECUs that have closed loop, or "self learn", none are yet (that I know of) able to tune for injector or ignition timing. I also don't think it is wise to have the tuner (whether that be the ecu or a dyno operator) aim for a signular fuel ratio. Normally you will find that the engine will need leaner mixtures at partial throttles, and fatter ratios for areas likely for detonation.
My Adaptronic 420c has adaptive closed loop ignition timing control which can be enabled, and like the VE tables, re-writes ignition tables on the fly based on placing the engine into a particular load point on the rpm/MAP tables for a specific amount of time. Its a pretty nifty bit of coding and a nice feature. BUT depending on the combustion chamber design, maximum torque could be arrived at right on the point of detonation which does not leave a lot of margin for variations of fuels, temps and so-on (elevation....heheheh). Some engines will carry vast amounts of advance with little or no detonation and others will grenade themselves significantly prior to maximum torque. Relying on the knock sensor to keep the engine alive is a sledgehammer tactic and a very risky strategy at best in this case of fussy engine. Knock sensing is nothing more than a microphone bolted to the engine, "listening" for the characteristic sound of detonation, long before its audible to the ears but the issue is that a lot of engine noise mimicks detonation and even noisy alternator bearings or piston slap can be interpreted as knock byt the ecu. The trick here is in the filtering of the audio stage and its pretty tricky to harden up the filtering to reject spurious engine noise without ignoring some knocking as well!!!!! Apparently, lot of work goes into the coding of this feature to make it workable. This adaptive ignition control in conjunction with knock sensing retard makes for a pretty good scenario but, of course requires the ignition map to be loaded up with a reasonable running map to begin with to give the ECU something to actually work with! With a reasonable combustion chamber design, and on and around max torque @ rpm a significant amount of degrees timing can still be pulled out and still produce good acceptable power levels but move much further away from the dreaded detonation lower limit and allow for variations in fuel "quality". There is usually a fairly significant "dead zone" where the engine will accept further ignition but produce little extra power so aiming for the lower limit of advance with safety in mind is best practise for sure. My ECU will increment the timing up to produce maximum torque by measuring tiny RPM increases relative to road speed. The adaptive controls can be left in place full time but changes to ignition timing are fairly slow and infrequent due to the time taken at a given set of circumstances to allow the ECU to make a correction. However, once a good number of load sites has been written, using the 3d table display, its fairly straightforward to simply "fill in the blanks" between the ECU written load sites to get a good and reliable ignition curve. Altering injector timing ?? Your speaking of individual injector dwell time yer, not injector timing which is pointless? My 420 does not but the 1280 does. L8r E
I stand corrected. It is a little niffty function. It does advance the ignition timing up to2 degrees, and back as far as the preset knock retard is set (both for sensitivity and redtart amount). As you suggested that listening for a certain frequency range for knock does not address all detonation. You are correct that you can advance ignition quite far with some combustion chamber designs, but eventually you will start to sacrific rpm (due to peak pressure being too early), detonation, or pre ignition. I am sure that you would agree the best way to address timing is only on a dyno, and with a five gas analyser. I have found some interesting responses from the VG30DE by retarding the timing from stock, especial when ECT is up to temp and AIT are low, at low to mid range load and RPMs. Not really dwell time, but refers to when the injection pulse is timed to the intake stroke. depending on the injector and the manifold design you would expect to see an injection timing of about 360 BTDC at idle and up to 460BTDC at 4000RPM. This can be played with to gain efficency, power and suppress detonation, by firing the injeciton at a closed inlet valve (or partially closed) and varying the mixture.
I wouldn't think so... AFM measures the amount of air entering via the resistance changes caused by variations in temperature in a small wire.. Denser air would cool the little wire quicker than thinner air simply by being a better medium of heat transfer.
