GT28RS Turbo's

I am staring this thread with a link to group buys thread where is started as group buys on radiator panel. It then diverteed to talk on Koyo and our twin pass PWR radiators which is informative and might want to check that. It got so off track and onto our GT28RS turbo kit which I know many would be intersted in as we receive so many emails and phone calls about. I have finally worked out and a break down on costing for COMPLETE kit as in the link and on page 6 if you want to check it out. I thought appropriate to start this thread rathr than continuing in the wrong section.

 

Reply to Method and Zisluv re turbo's.

Sorry here is the link.

Link to group buys


Method again you mention Zilsuv turbo's spool is better than mine from what you see. What do you see as I bet not? I think you took it totally out of context as I did not call you a fool so no need to say I am one. You put a post saying Zilsuv has less lag than me so I am the fool. Even if it was the case no need to call someone specifically a fool. I was refering to even a fool could see that it looked like you were clearly having a go at us. Anyway Zilsuv does not make the same power as mine down low or up top. Remember if hub dyno then yes less lag as not heavy wheels to turn or frictional loss from tyres. Even with this I think you will find more lag.
Also re other workshops I did not say all other work shops although I think I can safely say that when it comes to zeds don't you? I just raised the point which DOES happen regularly people saving money going to other cheaper work shops especially if they don't know zeds, and cost them big time in some cases. Also cheap parts can bight you or not work as well.

What is actually included with PE1420s for ~$3500AUD. My point is with ours the inlet and turbo is so big that you need custom inlets with reducers and custom engine mount on one side to clear. This give higher flow as larger volume and less restriction.
Inconnel manifolds are not so reliable and ALL stainless manifolds will crack Chewy will tell you that as not the right metal for the job.
Zilsuv the flow figures with the porting compared to after market is nice and seen that before, and yes and good after market manifolds should flow better as I have always said, but at what cost and only if in steam pipe, as stainless cracks especially in race conditions and I will never ues it. You mention if I want real performance then get them well 456rwkw is real perfromance I think. No not dreaming steam pipe is better and why race cars use it and bling cars use stainless. No not ESSENTIAL, problem is why does my engine make more power and spool in less time? It is the whole package. If essential then how is 400plus rwkw in two cars and many more to follow possible? Or are you talking higher or? Why do you say extrude honing numerous times is a waste of money many times in the past on this forum yet contacted James from Abrasive Flow in Sydney who we use, numerous times trying to get it done. Yes I know and yes they are exclusive to us and yes he tells me.

Re Shifter motor trying to dig something up there to.
Shifters car has a standard crank pulley for reliability, and lower comp than mine. Also has Cat converters and restrictive exhaust compared to mine. Has VVT mine does not as has four adj cam gears. Mine has lightened drive train and lighter cam gears, alloy power steering pulley and alt pulley etc. Mine also has 1 mm larger valves and more.

You mention factory manifolds cracking form porting yes this could happen if ported too much. Ours are done by a specialist with our input and then extrude honed which gives a very smooth and stronger surface finish and never been a problem, NEVER crack and we have been porting them for years. We certainly have tested them with harsh conditions not just dyno queens. You mention we had a failure at the track yes we did and with the huge amount of track work we do and mods and experimenting and harsh testing this is to be expected. You have been to the track once or twice and have had massive problems with lots of items and now complete failure.
You stated you made 500rwhp HUB Dyno. BIG ?? No frictional loss from tyres or moving heavy tyres. Shifters car with previous motor made 270rwkw on our dyno then went to a Hub Dyno Dynopac and made over 300rwkw. You also made a false statement saying ours made 400rwkw when it was rwkw or more even with the S15 turbo's. Again you make a false statement only surviving on race fuel. I have only used race fuel once at the track old World Rally fuel years ago and C16 at the drags once. I have used Optimax with NF octane booster and do on average around 10 Drag, Drift and Circuit events a year. Not once or twice an a few hub dyno runs. Last track day I used the new 100 octane and will do in future. So again make sweeping false statements which you are good at and accuse others of your failings in this area which is typical.
Also don't email me again asking advice on turbo's as my advice via email to you is clearly not appreciated and you are clearly dangerous with information.

 

Lol, John you crack me up.

I think your a bit confused to some of the references Method made because the pics in my post that were hosted went down overnight. Here is the original post with images:




Shifter, I dont want to knock the work done on your car, but a simple question for you. Your engine has had all the same work done to it as the UAS track car. Youve got the same turbos, manifolds etc that John was running. Why such a difference in your dynos?
If you compare yours vs Johns, with yours being in the black:



Why such a huge difference? Similar curve yet yours lags a good 600 rpm at every point. If someone bought this kit from UAS for 8k+ and didnt have the extensive work in porting as well as increased compression etc that yours has it would be fair to say it would be even laggier correct? Area under the curve is not that fantastic.

As for manifolds, here is some real data for you to compare:

Flow on stock heads with 3 angle valve job.
Lift /Flow@28" /% compared to open heads

Open head
0.2 /144.82
0.3 /163.7
0.4 /178.28

Stock Manifold
0.1 /63.61 /84.1
0.2 /95.09 /65.6
0.3 /99.6 /60.8
0.4 /101.8 /56.7

Stock manifold hand ported
0.1 /67.5 /89.3
0.2 /93.12 /64.3
0.3 /99.6 /60.8
0.4 /101.8 /57.1

Stock manifold extrude honed
0.1 /65.03 /86.2
0.2 /102.41 /70.7
0.3 /110.12 /67.3
0.4 /110.12 /61.8

Greg D Tubular
0.1 /73.41 /97.1
0.2 /136.77 /94.4
0.3 /148.18 /90.5
0.4 /150.8 /84.6

Greddy Tubular
0.1 /74.88 /99
0.2 /137.47 /94.9
0.3 /156.91 /95.9
0.4 /158.98 /89.2

Pentroof Tubular
0.1 /74.9 /99
0.2 /140.28 /96.8
0.3 /160.81 /98.2
0.4 /165.76 /93
Original link here

This shows REAL flow figures, compared side to side with other manifolds on the same flow bench. Not any "impressions" on how well they should do. I think that for anyone interested in real performance a good set of manifolds is an essential expense and you are just cutting your own legs off if you stick with extrude honed stockies. We are talking about 20% more flow at every level.

Now John, as your so fixated on manifolds cracking, you may be interested in knowing that I have heard of quite a few stock manifolds cracking as they were ported out so much chasing the flow of a better designed manifold. Maybe your speaking too soon on yours. None of the inconel manifolds have cracked aside from one early version and mine which would of seen temps in excess of 1300 degrees Im told. If your trying somehow to make out that inconel is an inferior material to use for manifolds or there could be something better then your dreaming.

As for the durability of the turbos, they produced the same dyno back to back for years prior to the retune so hardly an issue.

So seeing that your motor is likely only surviving on race gas, and even the same motor built by the same mechanics with the exact same turbo kit is a lot different between dynos, we should compare apples to apples. Shifters with full porting work, octane booster, cams, increased compression etc vs mine which is running PLAIN pump gas with NO octane booster, NO porting of the heads and cams WITHOUT the VVT engaged (so even laggier), with 8.5:1 compression:



I know which turbos I'm choosing to run again in my car. This time around with portwork to the heads and use of the VVT it will be spooling even faster, and still on plain pump gas.

Now John you get fairly high and mighty about how good you are, but lets not forget I was making over 500rwhp for years on pump gas while your race car with a dedicated shop and team of mechanics could not even make over 400 on race gas, so please dont act like you know it all about 300s. Im sure people also havent forgotten the COMPLETE ENGINE FAILURE your car had at the track due to a falied tensioner. So lets not start preaching that somehow your shop is blessed with never making a mistake in a build.

As for the costs of your kit, I agree with Tektrader. You can price it as you like and let the market decide what its worth. How this thread got onto turbos I dont know, but certainly your kit isnt the be all/ end all of kits, and certainly you shouldnt go knocking decent manifolds when youve never even run a set.

 

Come on guys get over it , you all have good cars so why such a contest

for who has the best:wacko:, I really think its all down to how long is that piece of string or should I say wallet.:thumbsup:what both side were saying was info thats of use to everyone, but now your all just getting into the good old shit fight game again.
Post info but leave names out if you dont want a war of words:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

Specifically to some of your points John

As you sound very confused.

For starters a general comment on your kit. Im not sure why you bother with larger inlet/outlets when your biggest restriction is your manifolds. Extrude honing these is a waste of money with turbos like this. Well proven and not just heresay like you like to use. Just refer to the flow testing. Yes Ive called the guy at extrude hone, specifically to extrude hone my upper plenum, NOT to hone an exhaust manifold. He had a few things to say about you also John, specifically how he thought the flow numbers you were quoting on your website were rubbish.

As for Shifters car, my understanding that aside from 1mm valves it is EXACTLY like your engine. Has raised compression, same head work, exact same turbo kit, yet look at the comparison. No were near the same dyno graph. Please explain.

Your a little confused here John. Ive had one problem at the track once, and that was this time with the tuning. Also at least I can say the damage isnt from something I have caused, unlike your complete engine failure.

My car was dyno'd on hub and roller with both reading 520+ for years while you couldnt make 400. What was your point of this question?

Lol please show me the email asking for advice? I asked you for information on this specific kit, with I must say the usual customer service from yourself with no real info given.

 

Lol MrTT I completely agree

This was on a little thread on a group buy. It was actually brought (re the kit) up by method, then shifter posted saying he was looking for my dyno to compare then John made some more remarks so I posted a comparison (which has been posted here). I think John doesnt like the thought of someone thinking his turbo kit is overpriced/too laggy and felt he had to bring it to the front page to explain to everyone who may of missed it. Complete waste of forum space IMO.

 

Is this another who's penis is bigger competition? :LOL:

 

Impresive Genitalia is the PC correct term.

Impresive Genitalia is the PC correct term. Lets not leave the girls out of the competition !!!

 

Seeing you are on a roll

overlapping the dynos etc could you please show the forum an overlapped dyno graph of

Yours vs. Johns 456kw run (GT28RS turbos)
while we're overlapping 400kw dyno runs do yours vs Johns 407kw run (GT28R turbos)

thanks.

Dont forget to mention that yours uses mega dollar manifolds and that Johns uses extrution honed manifolds (1/5th of the price) which you think are a waste of time/money and are rubbish. :wacko: I think you'll find that your dyno is still 'laggier' then both of those. But then imagine Johns dyno WITH tubular manifolds (not that he'd ever put stainless manifolds on a race car). Take note Method as you keep saying that Johns power curve is not as good for some reason. I dont know what you are seeing but hopefully this will clarify for you.

By the way, I agree tubular manifolds are better flowing, but that doesn't mean I am going to fork out $2500 for a pair of stainless ones.

You can also overlap my 270kw dyno run (on UAS dyno page) to Johns 456kw run. I think you'll find my stock turbos are 'laggier' in comparison to the RS ones because the RS ones makes power sooner everywhere in the rpm range compared to the stockies. Its not exactly apples for apples but does this mean stock turbos are laggy turbos?

I only chimed in the last discussion because I thought it was odd Method compared something as large and complete as the UAS turbo kit price to kits like the PE1420 overseas which I think you would agree is not exactly fair considering the PE1420 kit excludes manifolds, dumps, airpods, mandrelbent piping, enginemount, and the heap of other things John already mentioned not included in OS kits like the PE1420. I was hit with the biggest 'WHAT THE????' Then he hit a new 'strange' by saying the $8K was expensive for 'just some turbos/dumps' even after being told the many things in the kit. I did not understand and wanted to clarify.

Also method You mentioned the prices were 'average' in the kit. Please tell the forum exactly where and how much we can get same quality or better for cheaper prices. John took the time to write every part and price down. Please show same courtesy and do much the same in reply rather than just copy/paste the whole contents and just say that the prices are average and that he could do cheaper. (I didn't know you worked on this kit with him :wacko: ) Otherwise I'll just put it down to another rubbish post and another persons excuse to make more anti-UAS posts without fact or reason.

To people bashing my dyno figure please understand that I am VERY HAPPY with it, its all that matters and its only the beginning and capable of MUCH more EASILY with upgrades to fuel system etc. Right now, when I take the car again, my engine at its hardest (which cant really do on public roads anyway) is just 'strolling through the park'. And for the moment, if I have to wait 600rpm to have a very smooth (and sharp) power curve whilst having an ultra RELIABLE motor with a brilliant SAFE tune for a street driven car then i'm happy to wait the 600rpm. There are still a number of differences between my car and Johns slot car (and his all for the better to get that curve and its not like they are all things you couldn't do on your own car to get that curve either). People have different priorites, different 'wants' out of their dyno curves and different financial situations.

In general, I dont care what turbos people have or want, where you get them, what price you paid for them, what power you make and where you make it with them, I'm happy with mine, and happy if you are happy with yours and you wont change that attitude so dont bother trying.

By the way, my penis might only be 4 inches but thats wide enough for most chicks :embarrassed: :LOL:

 

Yes flow figures

Were from power porting and yes we have discussed this and ?

Re flow test the larger throttle bodies and extrude honing of plenum only makes about 7 to 9 cfm so we don't recommend any more, and my current engine does not have.

I think you are again confused with stats and facts and figures as you are talking hp we are talking kw mine made 612 hp in your scale as used in WA in Sydney we mainly use kw LOT's mroe than HP. We fall over 400hp on the way through.

 

Sure

I can do that for you when I get home.

Still I havent heard from you or John why the same motor (almost exactly identical) with the same turbos and setup are so different on the dyno? Is John using a bit of nitrous maybe and not telling anyone? Maybe you can explain it. To me there is no reason why your two dynos are different other than something funny has been done on Johns. Im happy to hear any other explanation.

I think the flow figures speak for themselves on how valuable the extrude honed manifolds are.

John, I think all but the new members know that you were still making around 380rwHP at best for a very long time after I had broken the 500rwhp mark. Not sure who your trying to kid with your remarks that you were always making huge HP.

 

Have done

Re shifters car I have explained in a fair amount of detail why on previous posts did you not see it in group buys Koyo thread? No I don;t have nitrous and have never fitted any on any car to date. You have nitrous on your car.

Not for years at all, you made 500rwhp??? Hub dyno once and been to track once or twice and had lots of problems since. I have had lots of motors and at one point the first motor with stock turbo's made 287rwkw. S15 turbo's made around 340rwkw or more for a few months and then we worked out valve timing equasion and fuel issues made 407rwkw. Big motor made 456rwkw which I sold and built another with slightly different turbo's and cams and highest to date 398rwkw on 21psi and could not get traction on the day due to old tyres and new suspension had toe angle way out and four guys in the boot on our dyno day. Will squeeze some more boost now all this sorted and will make lots more on 23 or more psi.
By the way Zisluv what pannet or world are you from anyway?

 

let's settle it with a Drag comp and a Track comp. Double The Fist style.

 

Re: Have done

boys boys boys.. take it outside

isnt your engine in a million peices nathan?

i'm not sure how this conversation from pe1420 to gt28rs comparisons turned into a slagging match which is completely unconstructive

it would be great if we all had limitless funds and can pull every horsey out of a dying breed, but we dont, how much money did you spend to get your 500 HP out of your car nathan? i'm sure its alot more than shifter spent getting 400kw (which is a damn site more than 500HP i might add) because of the r&d UAS has put into the VG.
i think the R&D that john has done for the GT28RS kit is awesome and i have no idea why our poor little GTs dont get that sort of treatment from other companies.. (well i do, it cost too much for too little return)

stop the bickering, thats not what this forum is for.. put up useful info, we are all old enough to make our own decision

 

Maybe you need to explain again. I havent seen anything that explains it

The two engines are almost identical yes? Same headwork, same components except valve size, same cams, springs, same pistons, same compression, same manifolds, same turbo. Correct me if Im wrong? Yours is the only one that only gets dyno'd at your shop exclusively and spools way sooner than shifters. Please explain.

For your benefit again John, as youve missed it the 2 other times, my car on hub and roller dyno was always 520+ on every measure. Ive had it dynod on at least 4 occasions, 3 of them roller so.... And yes all that time you couldnt break 400 despite a team of mechanics.

Id just like a good explanation cause it smells fishy to me. Or are you saying you did a bad job on shifters engine? Whats the story?

 

Keep up the excellent work John + UAS Team.

 

RE:GT28rs turbos

My two cents worth.....
Having run a number of small businesses over many years, I have a reasonable understanding of the costs involved to keep the door open.
Small business is not a benevolent society.
UAS is a function of the high performance auto industry which is a very competitive market.
The invent of internet shopping and such, has reduced margins considerably, but the lights still need to be switched on and wages need to be paid.
From my position, it seems obvious that UAS is innovative and forward in it's thinking, always looking for an increase in performance and customer service. In this process, UAS has developed a number of Zed only upgrades/performance products.
The retailing of this is dependent on a number of factors, quality, fitment, aesthetics, performance, overheads and `intellectual property'.
If in the process of development it costs `x' amount, that figure must be incorporated into the bottom line.
Any one can buy Bolt-on what-evers, whether it is a turbo system or a Callaway big bertha driver imitation from O/S at a `cheap price', but what you don't get is longevity of the product and aftermarket service.
This is what this shop provides in spades and more, and as a bonus, they have a real passion for the one thing we all share, 300ZX's, they go out of their way to help those of us, who are in need of advise and more often than not,share with the entire zed community.

 

It is like talking to a 2 year old, if you read what you actually typed, yo

u said

Common sense tells us that you obviously think I am having a go at you, therefore, if a fool would see that it is, and you see that it is, then that must make you a fool. You MUST think I am, because you had to end it with it being laughable and so wrong. Again, you said I am taking this out of context, but re-read what you actually type and you will see that you have taken this whole thing out of context when all you were asked for is proof of your so called extensive testing and R&D.

I guess this is what a uni degree helps us understand in terms of common sense and logic.

The last part was added for CHILI :thumbsup:

 

Nathan

Please stop marring my car and putting it in the middle of this petty debate. I do not need or want you on my case to inquire about my dyno curve. And no one here needs to justify themselves or their workmanship to you. Quite frankly my car and what i've done etc is none of your business. So stop harrassing people to give you answers you clearly do not deserve or need to know.

UAS did an outstanding job as always. Get over it.

G'bye

 

From my understanding, the graph he has plotted onto your dyno curve

seems to be shifted to the left all the way up until both make peak power. If that means it is more laggy, please explain to me how this is so.

Keep in mind he has NO HEAD WORK. If you take time reading the post on tt.net how one set of turbos wouldn't make ANY more power, regardless of boost because of the head work, then you will understand why ZisLuv says to you that he has no head work in comparison.