Cryogenic Treatments

Ive heard a lot of good things about cryotreating the crank and block via the internet, and ive heard its pointless from the one engine building guru i know in real life. Naturally ive been left confused due to the conflicting reports. The engine guy i know definitely does know his stuff, he has built or spec'd and supplied parts for 50+ high hp v8s in the few years ive known him, and has been doing it for a several years more, so im suprised his opinion conflicts with a huge deal of online opinions that cryo treatment is amazing.

His words are "cryo treating is pointless, it wont increase engine wear".
My understanding of the cryo treatment is that it increases the 'hardness' of the materials and can extend wear by up to 300%. Now while i dont necessarily believe that particular figure is 100%, im sure there is some benefit to cryo treatments, and every site ive found so far agrees.

Is there anyone on here that can shed a little more light on the subject, or even better has some real world experience with products that have been cryo treated? Thanks.

 

Metallurgical Cyrogenics

This is a proven science and has been around for a long time, used for a lot more than just engines. I was introduced to it in the mid 80's when studying Engineering.
http://www.academia.edu/1720735/METALLURGICAL_CHANGES_IN_STEELS_BY_CRYOGENIC_PROCESSING

 

Mind if I ask how much you paid to get the crank done? I just got quoted like $350 and it seems a bit steep...

 

Used to be used a lot in gokarts. This is one review
http://www.iwt.com.au/cryogenics.htm

Not sure if its still popular

They generally report a 1% power gain.

 

Hey Champ

Old skool mechanic gurus never worried about this, in their days the cost was more prohibitive then and they considered the extra money could be more useful being spent on other items instead. Very little research had been done on cryo treating in days gone by.

Since these old skool days things have changed a lot, such as tolerances being much finer and also the cost has come down considerably being more available and more research has been done. Consider that these days many hi tech racing cars have had cryo treating done on their blocks etc
Also in the older days blueprinting was a priority (and expensive)before cryo whereas today it is not the case

The benefits are now scientifically proven to be of benefit as you have found out and stated.

Technically these old skool and new skool gurus are still correct in that it comes down to cost and whether the components are up to spec to warrant doing it in the first place and in a more simple sense - whether the motor is old or modern. In older days it wasn't really worthwhile then as tolerances were much less. What I mean is that it comes down whether you have the money to do it, if you do - great, but if money is tight it may be more beneficial to use the money on blueprinting/ better turbo's / porting / forged pistons / or even simple things like better oil and more regular changes etc etc (if they are not done already - these are just some of the examples of what can be done as you already know, so they are part of the whole consideration and equation)

Simple terms - If you have motor like robs and you have the money to spare yes - If you don't - it may be more prudent to spend it on something else

Remember the base components like the block and head are the most important parts that should be treated as a priority in the scheme of things

Hope this is helpful in explaining why old skool mechanic gurus may disagree - they are still thinking about older style motors which would be correct in principle.

JC

 

It amazes me how superz can say so much and yet so little at the same time.

1 page summary -'old guys thought it was a waste. Dunno might be worthwhile'

 

Yeh ive been quoted $350 for the crank and another $480 for the block. I think i might have to shop around that or sell a kidney for this guy to do it. Have you noticed any extra longevity or other benefits to your parts rob? Sorry to keep bugging you

 

I Had

Block ,girdle,crank ,rods ,valve springs and cams done

was around $550 from memory .It works off weight .


.

 

Thats what i thought too...looks like someone is trying to rip me off. Does anyone know of a place over my side of the country that wont try rip me off? And also is it better to machine your components you are getting treated before or after getting them dipped?

 

Because nothing is ever as simple as a one liner
Especially in the context of things.

So for you I will make it simple to understand:

In an old motor it is not worthwhile as it would most likely need blueprinting first

In a new more modern motor it is worthwhile - if you have the money

Ah spank me! :rofl:

At least I made a contribution to his post!

So what did you contribute?
Nothing...... but a hijack of the post and a troll response :rofl:

Another valued contribution to the forum!
:br:

 

Now i dont wanna look like an a**hole here, but im gonna have to. Im the guy looking for advice and even im seeing flaws in what youve suggested. I appreciate the fact you are eager to help, but giving wrong advice and information is worse than no advice and information. If you are speculating, just say so.

Secondly, using a post to tell someone that they are not contributing (ie wasting a post) is a waste of a post. This is how threads get derailed. You wanna fling sh*t like monkeys? Feel free to do it elswhere.

 

machining before or after doesn't make a difference .

its a grain structure transformation of the metal ...unlike a hardening process you can machine off.


.

 

Dumping on help smells like a turd from an a...hole

Hang on a minute - get with reality here - Cryo treating may have been done in the 1800's but there was very little known about it in a general public sense - if you had asked a mechanic in 1800 / 1850 /1900 /1950 anything about cryo treatment - they would have said WTF are you on about! That was my reality point.

I don't know if money is an issue or not for you - but it is probably the most relevant consideration when deciding - I will have to remember to look into my crystal ball when offering any assistance in future in your posts and forget about any relevant points

The reason I was talking about an older type of motor, was to try to understand a reason and explain why this guru would suggest its not worth doing. The only reason I could come up with - was if the motor was old. I tend to defend old skool guru's because they generally are pretty smart. My defence for this guru is clearly wrong and so maybe he isn't such a guru after all as you suggested - maybe you should go back and ask him why. Most older motors in muscle cars and performance cars were V8's (such as 351 clevelands / 350's chevs etc and its these motors that required blueprinting/ crank work to give finer tolerances - this work is quite common today on these older motors to bring up the HP to more respectable levels that are more comparable to modern motors which are virtually blueprinted in finer tolerances on the modern production lines.

Your technically correct about the cams before the heads, I was just thinking offhand in reference to block components with internal temperatures being high and pressure. So I wasn't thinking of actual contact surfaces as such offhand - again I will remember to dot my I's and T's when talking technical since your picky (its all you have really offered in response in your dump on me post) - but remembering the block being the priority was my main point here!

Secondly defending myself against a hijack with a troll response is a waste of a post to you, but not to me! I have a right to defend/ explain a "dump on me post" just like this one and I am sick of the dumping crap by trolls and the support by the little minion troll followers that goes on this forum over the most technical dots over the T's and when crossing the I's and in context explanations - I write so that context is accurate to most people, even the simplest because I don't know who I am talking too, its not the first time I have had to repeat the same sentence four times in a thread, so I try to save time by giving as much context as possible to help.
This thread was hijacked/ derailed NOT BY ME! So do not accuse me of doing this and blame the REAL TROLLer here! So get with reality and stop being a minion troll supporter to these people that need to get a better life. I don't know everything, but I have been around for a long time and have worked on many engines over many years, I am not some young pimple squeezing keyboard warrior hijacking troll that likes to be dumped on whether its by a bully group or not.

I am sorry but yes you look like an a...hole whether intentional or not.

How many motors have you had treated with cryo before?

I am so done with this post and will no longer bother and will let it drop to the bottom like all good trolling threads (feel free to dump now without reply!) and I will not offer you help nor advice in any of your posts in future given you "Flinging shit like a monkey" on me for either public ego or troll minion support.

This forum (and all Z's) are too good for this dumping crap by hijacking trolls and some forum members need to try sincerity in assistance and posting as an alternative!

......Over and Out!

 

Its an option for big engine builds that works, not such an advantage for the lower end of the engine builders....eg: if your spending over the 50K mark its on your list of to do's, if your only blowing a max of ~20K its more than likely no real advantage but more a bragging right


On the few 90K motors I've done I had a gain of ~5% HP on the dyno, compare that to the motor we did that was less serious we found only a 2% HP gain after spending 40K on mods...... NB: that's on CAR engines....

On m/cycle engines we found the same basic ratio applied, you needed to spend the bucks and have the mods list right up there for a noticeable improvement on the dyno, there was no real advantage on a cheaper build BUT there was a noticeable improvement on wear of the engines over the non treated ones, we effectively quadrupled the time between rebuilds of the race engines so the savings were certainly there


so.......
if your only a lower end budgeted big horsepower chaser its probably no real advantage in the HP gain (maybe a 1 or 2 percent increase), if however your wallet is bigger than your step ladder and every single pony needs to be screwed from that chunk of steel then its an invaluable part of the process of that engines build.
The only other advantage you would see as a lower end budgeted engine builder is the longer period you'll get between rebuilds


We found machining work should be done prior to treatment BUT.... that work shouldn't be done to the max, it was better to machine the bits to allow for a 2nd machining process AFTER the dipping.... EG: head porting and polishing was better if we did the port work but only half the actual polishing prior to dipping, once it was treated we found the chambers DID have a slightly varying shape to what we had originally cut them too, it wasn't a huge job to re-cut them to our specs but it was a major job if we didn't do the porting pre-treating.



There's two things that most performance guys miss entirely with cryogenics

One is the gearbox..... there ARE huge advantages to have the gearsets & shafts done, the box WILL take more punishment and it will be smoother and last lots longer.... equals win win and win situation

the 2nd one is the brake rotors..... its a very cost effective way of a major improvement in you brakes whether they are a std size or larger discs, imagine NO WARPING..... cause that's the end result
The discs on my zed HAVE been treated and they've outperformed some well known other brands of brake upgrades.... in this case its a huge advantage for the cash outlay


I don't play with cryogenics any more except for the brake disc treatment, to me its the one part of the car that you can see where the money has gone
:br:

 

I was considering doing the gearbox when i did my clutch next, but thats beyond my technical knowledge Brakes was not one that i had thought of, but now that you mention it...sounds well worth it. Do your rotors still need machining or does the actual hardness of the material increase as well?

 

I have been getting car parts cryogenic treated for years. I don't think it does much to alloy mainly steel so i have never bothered getting pistons done. apparently valve springs lose up to 30% tension over time with heated vibration and when you cryogenic treat them they lose maximum 3%. My current motor I have had the valve springs cryo treated as well the con-rods, piston rings, valves, bearings and crank. If you get it done in a batch its fairly cheap. There is no side effects unless you allow it to rust but not sprain with WD-40 or similar after treatment. I know for a fact most of the V8 super cars use it in particular the ones running Eibach springs, get cryo treated so they stay consistent over time. you can also get parts treated like disc rotors which i have done. The rotors work better and last longer and far less likely to warp, as cryo treatment drastically reduces hot spots.

So if you are doing an engine and you on a budget, the best bang for buck is treating valves springs, valves, piston rings and bearings. Which are all light whilst also the most beneficial to do. You may have to wait to go into a batch of other peoples parts otherwise it cost a lot more.

It's hard tot tell if it actually works. The only definite feed back i have heard of is that i know an engineer that worked in a printing company and he told me they used to get their blades for their guillotine, which he said made them last much longer.