when you stress the block to hone them you put the block in a dynamic state as if it were in a real time tq application. The only way to ensure the blocks are bored/honed square is to simulate the stressed enviroment they will end up being put through. Do it without a tq plate and you'll see you'll have issues quite fast. I would do home test for yourself. bore/hone a block without a tq plate and then do one with. Once you tq the heads down on the block that wasn't utlizing the tq plate you'll have inconsistancies throughout the bore. Those inconsistancies will cause you the issues I listed above in my first response. I don't warm fuzzies or wet in my knickers regarding any of this..I simply know that the work I'm performing is consistant to what is being ran once the engine is built. You seriously don't think that the top engine building companies in the world don't use a tq plate do you? Cosworth, all F1 teams all the pro stock and Top fuel engines...ALL of them use a tq plate. Some utilze a hot hone where the blocks are heated and hot honing oil is ran through the blocks as they hone as they want to hone as the blocks are hot but theres been no evidence that the hot honing vs the cold method is any better/worse. Both give you the same desired outcome. Bottom line is that if you want the machining to the blocks done correct and true then the only way to do this is to stress the assemblies using a tq plate when you hone and tq the mains down. Outside of that you are just setting yourself up for disaster later on.
There is no need in using a tq plate when you bore. You are removing so much material from the bore area the tq plate won't keep the bores straight enough. The only time you are worried about ensuring the bores are square/straight and concentric is when you are honing for final clearance/tolerance.
being that I'm a machinist and do this for a living outside of my aerospace machinist job I'd have to tell you that its not an opinion from the experts who do this on a day in and day out basis. Take it for what its worth bud budget to insane...you want your assemblies to be as best as they can be and halfassing a hone job will simply result in a rebuild sooner than later. Sure it may hold up but if you want things done properly and correctly to where figures are consistant then you should/need to do it correctly. Just an example...do you want to hit your target number (HP) just once or be consistant with that figure all the time? Cool you hit 500rwhp one day but from then on you never made that much power...for that matter anywhere close to it...wouldn't you be a little upset that you went through all that trouble to hit the figure just one time rather than being in the cush and having that reliability and knowing the engine will perform time and time again consistantly?
If that was for me, does it change the game if I want stock (or less) power by rebuilding an engine that is fast approaching 300,000km? (on a grey import's odometer too I might add). Even marginal improvements would be beter than what I currently have My perspective is that I don't want big HP (not everyone does). I've got a built TT if I want to go fast. For my NA, I want it to be reliable, and do it for the minimal cost possible. HP doesn't make the world go round. Some people are just as happy in an 800cc daewoo as they would be in a big block chev suckin' nitro
So this is another one of those things that up to 300rwkw you dont need a torque plate and over that you do? Thats a ridiculous argument.
Re-read my reply above. I do not agree torque plate is the holy grail. However as I stated, I also stress the blocks during machining just like you do, I just do it differently. And LOL, you think a VG is comparable to a prostock or F1 engine. Show me an NA VG that makes 3hp per inch.
i don't know any decent engine builders who DONT tq plate hone on PERFORMANCE builds.Anybody can throw a catalog full of parts at an engine and build it. It is the little extras that experienced engine builders do that can make that extra 50hp, or make that engine last years not weeks. I think some recent examples of rebuilds on here are proof of that.
Gotta say I agree with this comment. So many blanket rules are stated. People have built 800hp engine on a garage floor. Sure building an f1 motor do all the above but people need to get realistic about the benefits of these advanced techniques same has to be said for the ball bearing vs journal bearing crap. Flame suit on
no where did I say a VG was comparible to a pro stock engine but the manner in which we machine the engines is exactly the same. Please look beyond pesimistic attitude you present publicly. I tell ppl like it is in the racing world....and thats how its done. Ask anyone who builds/machines engines (racing or not). I'm not here to argue just stating fact. You don't have to believe what I've stated...your right to believe in what you want in how you want but all I can tell you is the way things are done and thats how it is. Good luck with your builds.
lol what is so advanced about using a tq plate? lol im lost as to why some of you are thinking this is voodoo work to get a block done correctly.
Eric doesn't use a torque plate. He stresses the block by getting the blocks future mother inlaw to sit the block down and ask the serious questions about future intentions. Now where's that teacup that you blokes pulled this storm from ah?
I think everyone on this forum hugely respects and notes your opinion on these topics I just wanted to say its not the be all and end all way to do things and that is all. Don't wanna be a keyboard warrior so I'll leave it at that
i agree, and on that note im out of this thread. Too many people on this forum are obsessed with power , it is one aspect of what an engine does, durability and consistency in operation are other equally important factors. There are motors that have done a million kilometers that are not torque plate honed. And to Black beast, since when is 300rwkw not a decent power output, thats a motor that is churning out the best part of 500hp , thats just a piece of shit is it?
who's arguing ? you are saying that you dont use a torque plate full stop ...I'm saying if you were building high horse power engines you still wouldn't use one? I said 300rwkw is good power not high horse power ... read before you get all defensive and emotional Stop misinterpreting what I am posting ...not saying from 300rwkw onwards ..I'm basically saying the higher the hp build the more inclined I would be to use a torque plate
Its more important with alloy blocks. I doubt it would affect how much power an engine will make, its more for 'life'.
Yeah im one those examples . That is so true what your saying but finding some one experienced and that actually cares for your build is another. "throw a catalog full of parts at an engine" as i have done spent absolute fortune $110p/h labor 100% markup on parts im sure with this ^^^ well known zed specialist or so he calls him self 5000ks later major issues already. with signs of this issue 6 months after my re build onwards they disconnected knock sensor o2s to hide the issue that i believe they where aware of and only now after taking it some were else after 2yrs of struggles with this motor, they have made me aware of whats really going on. but now its to late in the eyes of department fairtrading Ive given him to many legs to stand on as in soon as you taking the car some where else, it being a performance motor, being 2yrs later even thou the low ks because i simply couldn't drive it for so long with the issues it had and didn't have the money to keep send it back as i paid each and every time it went back with the same issues as last and that it got re tuned at same boost settings as it was always tuned for where they picked up the issue on the dyno. they got so many ways of getting out of being held responsible its ridicules. Ive been down this road twice know $22k first motor only to blow head gasket on the dyno trying to tune it. they closed up shop diapered as he owed alot of ppl Drg money wound up dead apparently. and now $60+k at the second shop and it has a suspect warped head faulty head gasket or cracked head its enuf to make you think of doing some thing stupid but with a little mr0300 on his way "baby" i gotta be smarter than that. let karma do its thing. As the same with customTT 'Sav' the nicest bloke really couldn't talk any more highly of his motor builder in Qld before his re build. Now with a very fresh re build look what his going throw and they void his warranty for a irrelevant issue on him. why would you re build a VG in Australia when there nothing fair about fair trading, there's so many holes in the system for them to get out of being held countable these mechanics can get away with murder. Im all about supporting Australian companies and all but why should we when they can't stand by there work because they clearly just don't care un less your a mate of theirs or if its for there own car of course. epRacing "Tech@EPR" will be Re doing my whole motor if i decide to stick with the VG, as he has clearly got a passion for what he does.
I sympathise with your frustration after throwing such a ridiculous amount of money at your car, but you're completely off track when you accuse the Dept. of Fair Trading of being set up to disadvantage the consumer(nothing could be further from the truth). What possible reason would there be for such a ludicrous action(it would be far easier, and cheaper to NOT have any avenue of recourse open to the consumer)? What advantage would there be for the Government of the day, to even consider such an indefensible and contestable piece of legislation? Another "Conspiracy Theory" against the Australian Public(there's a Communist under every blade of grass, beware)?
Bore alignment can effect power production, not just with side wall loading frictions but also the actual timings of inginition and cams. However, we are now talking about some serious fine tuning at the top end. I am curious that you only would do it with the home process and not the boring. I thought both would be just as important.
mine is getting done for both bore and hone as recommended by machine shop. Interesting facts today as my bottom was picked up by machine shop. A recent RB motor had 1.5 thou difference in the bore with a torque plate .. thats a fair bit for piston bore clearance the V8 chev's they do have up to 5 thou change they wont bore them without a torque plate. Its your choice on how and who you get to build your motor.
