Re: I think mike is using stock manifolds as well. I started porting my Stock manifolds today. I am going to be pretty agressive with porting them. It is very hard to take pics of the black parts inside. But the thing that struck me about them is that the where the last runner joins the turbo flange. The hole where the exhaust gas exits is quite a bit smaller than just one of the exhaust entry holes. The stock manifolds really do have issues. I have welded up the over zealous machining bolt flange surfaces so I can port deeper. I will recut the external clearance for the bolt head later on. Apart from a slightly increased bore diameter in these new cast manifolds from Mike Smith. I can see how there is a huge gains to be made. I would be surprised if these modded stock manifolds are significantly worse than the others after this heavy porting and an extrude hone. I recon I will get them flow tested this time so we can compare. The excess material in these is enormous.
I emailed you a pic. Cuteftp expired on me You will see what they are. They weld in after the dump pipes. Just absorb hits to the piping under the car from kurbs etc and vibration etc to take the stress off the turbos/manis. The graph is flow in degrees of lift of the cams/valves. Show different rates of flow as the valve opens. The higher the degree of lift the more open the valve and the more it flows. Just shows the different flow characteristics. Turbos wont definately spool 30% faster but certainly more flow = more power.
When do you think you'l be done? If its reasonably soon I can send you one of my manis to compare on the same flow bench for a better comparison if your interested?
Re: When do you think you'l be done? I will probably be finished this week. But then I will be off to the USA for a few weeks. We could do it when i get back? when is your engine going back together Nathan? One thing I would really want to do is try to fit external wastegate bosses on the stock manifolds. They are very hard to weld I found out today. I am still not sure if they are Cast iron or cast steel. Seemed to be OK after the welding but I dunno. :wacko: I may try to weld the 38MM wastegate bosses on the end where the EGR pipes goes. So it may take a while. I havent bought the HKS actuators and have the external wastegates already. I have been thinking I may as well try to use them. This is HARD !! :thumbsup: Hope it's worth it
I don't see the point in extrude honing them, the time and money you would spend, you would probably be better off just spending the extra money and getting some aftermarkets like the MS *if* they ever come out. It would only be worth it if you don't extrude hone them.
Re: I don't see the point in extrude honing them, the time and money you would Extrude hone = $300 the pair I have been quoted. I have spent that much cash on this bloody thing already $300 sint gonna make any diff. I spose that the thing about working on this car for me is to squeeze as much as I can out of the cash I put in. AND (and this is most important to me) doing things that most people say isnt possible and proving em wrong. If I get great results with the manifolds. I get to say "nah your all wrong" :LOL::LOL::LOL:
Re: I don't see the point in extrude honing them, the time and money you would Extrude honing will get those areas you just can't get with hand porting. But there is a lot of casting you can take out. But if willing to spend the money and take the risk of cracking there are better designs. I was a bit skeptical of the claimed flow results on the Mike Smith manifolds. If I read correctly they only tested on the centre port, wouldn't you need to test all of them?
The 2 graphs feature: MSmith Cast and MSmith V1 what is the difference between them? Is MSmith Cast a Version2? is that the one featured in the thread shown in black and with MSP written on them? if so, that is flowing 70% more than stock! also, enlarging the valves, is that a big effort? because that's flowing over DOUBLE the stock...
enlarging the valves isn't a big effort but it is the valve grind that make s all the flow difference! Larger valves only increase it to an extent, the valve grind does the rest. You don't need larger valves to have a valve grind done.
angled radius cuts on the valve and valve seats, you can see it in those pi cs there on the heads. There is 3 angle and 5 angle, some involve just the cut on the seat, others are seat and valve I think. I believe you can even get > 5 but that is mainly on drag cars etc. If you do a search for maglitos engine build part 1 on tt.net, he has a diagram of it on paper in one of the photos showing the angles. This is what creates the good flow, not the size of the valve.
Re: I don't see the point in extrude honing them, the time and money you would The centre port is arguably the most strangled and restrictive of all the runners. They use that as the benchmark as the rest are going to be better than the centre one in every circumstance. Those pics are cool Mike. The rust actually lets you see the old manifolds insides. The ones i have are all black inside and the pics are horrible.
Your Inconnel ? manifolds cracked F1 would use real Inconnel and as mentioned nd not to be confused not all items in racing is suitable for road cars. It is mainly stainless manfolds that crack and regularly. Bottom line is cast iron manifolds never crack and stailess and other Gucci ones can and do like HKS, Greddy etc we see it regularly on GTR's mainly.
I think you already proved your knowledge is poor please stop reinforcing it. Firstly you didnt even know what inconel was, you didnt even know F1 used it, you didnt even know the first property of it yet you were claiming to be "expert" again on how its the wrong choice of metal. Shame this is EXACTLY what its used for. Now your claiming F1 uses "real" inconel as opposed to what? Greg D uses "false" inconel?? Inconel is trademarked composition of metal, how can you not get "real" inconel. Please stop now. Cast iron indeed cracks. Please search ttnet. Melting point of cast iron 1260 degrees, lower than inconel. The benefit of cast is its much thicker, sad news is that extrude honing and porting removes that fact. You need to go check how those replacement rods are going. Perhaps you need to write to Nissan and tell them they used the wrong metal which is why youve had to replace them
How does Inconnel go With heating up, cooling down, heating up again and cooling down again etc. How would it go doing this over many years of use this way? Also how does the temps behave over factory cast? (eg quicker to heat up and quick to cool down, slower or same?) I imagine F1 cars, they just stay heated and once the race is over, they dont use that motor again anyway so they only really use things for a very short time. So 'just because F1 cars use them it has to be good' is not a good theory when applying to a daily driven street car used completely differently and where the owners hope the parts they put in will last a very long time. Just like to say i'm happy with my factory ported and extrution honed manifolds. Heart races everytime I put the foot down as this is not a power curve that will be 'getting used to'. Its always a thrill and 'manifold restriction' is far from my mind Still have yet to take the car past 1 bar of boost too as not many opportunities on the street but from what I can see, spending 5 times the amount of money on inconnel manifolds would have been a pointless and a bloody waste of money for my needs. I'd rather spend $2000odd saved elsewhere. (as inconnel manifolds landed here from US cost in excess of $2500) There is more to a zed then manifolds to spend money on and more to life than a zed. Dont have to think people 'skimp' on things because they have different budgets, desires and needs/wants for their car or life. Afterall how many people 'need' to spend 5 times more for inconnel?
No idea shifter it should perform very well. All I can find on the internet in regards to manifold use for racing or in general is that its the best material. I can only presume its ok as its used on ferrari production cars also. It would take more effort to find the exact answer to your question than I can be bothered Im afraid I wont argue with you on the budgets issue. You can get HUGE power and still have the stock cast mani's, look at mike(nz). In the past it was thought you couldnt physically pass 500rwhp with them as they were too restrictive and that thought has obviously changed as people push the limits further. There is only 2 points that I argue with. 1) That inconel is the wrong meterial for manifolds as it WILL crack, as thats so completely wrong its like saying black is white. 2) That the stock mani's ported and honed flow as good or better when the ONLY objective flow data available on the net clearly dispute it. Its rediculous to suggest otherwise unless you have the data to back it up. I think these MS ones will be really great if they are priced well.
Miss quote and verbal KING You are king of miss quoting, you either leave out or chop off or completely mix words. I put it down to entertainment now as most others do. This is what I actually said. I read it and needed to decode and meant staino or mega dollar part Inconell. I doubt if the mega dollar Inconnell? manifolds you had that CRACKED are same metallurgy as F1. Again you put words in my mouth that I did not know F1 used them. Assumptions do not count. I question that they are Inconnel which is very hard to work with and VERY expensive material and may be a mix. I don't know that they are or not. Yours cracked and made 514rwhp? which over time crept up to 520 rwhp which in fact was ? hub horse power anyway, and mine and many others now with much much cheaper stock manifolds extrude honed made well over that and no cracks. Again don't let facts get in the way of a story hey?? If a motor ever got to 1260c it is all over anyway. What do you think exhaust housings in manifolds are made from? How much did your Inconnell? manifolds cost anyway and how long did they last before they cracked? They may be good for flow and even better but the cost and the risk of cracking especially for circuit or drag going cars not dyno queens is the ? re these Mike Smith ones I did nto see any answer if they are facctory ones extrude honed or actually new cast ones?
The very first ones were factory cast, but welded heavily and ported then honed. The new design is a full new cast. You can see it from the pics the pipe diameter is much larger. They are based on the exact design from stock which was odd to see..
