fuel coolers ?????

I assume the beast is running a carby set up as well? this is based on another assumption that's it's some sort of old school V8???

Regardless of the assumptions above that could be wildly off the mark, there are changes to the viscosity of the fuel that could result in a slightly leaner mixture if using a carb or a map sensor with EFI. Any power change testing needs to take all this sort of thing in to account.
Ideally what ya need is a peak power absolute maximum you can get at a given amount of boost etc, then set up the fuel cooling and re tune to suit the new variables and go for peak power again.

We are never going to see 25% or anything silly like that but there will be a gain, would I do it on a road car? If I were bored yeah why not, plenty of fun to be had pissing about with it.
Would I do it to a track car? If I had the time and was happy with everything else on the car then yeah I'd give it a shot.

And Kingy what you have shown beyond reasonable doubt is that you can achieve cooler fuel via the air con system & that you did notice a perceivable change in the performance of the engine.
That's far better than cut n paste and a dash of no can do attitude.
Interesting how fuel coolers are supposedly a waste of time yet an engine dampener is something to be proud of :rofl:
Has that one been covered yet? I'd love to see that one go in the ring for a few rounds :rofl::rofl:

 

How is this "Z Related" ?

99% of the members of this owners association are street driven cars, fuel coolers are as relevant as air brakes here.

You guys are out of context and that is why you are getting confused and bitter.

Not a single scrap of credible evidence of benefit, somehow I get the impression the exercise is techno masturbating.

And yes F1 fuel cooling exists, there is a 2 fold usefulness, the amount of energy/fuel you could get in a tank increasing distance travelled and small power gains.

Stand alone cooling fuel systems are not relevant to us, although interesting. It is just providing external benefit that does not have parasitic load on the machine. Any extra vehicle weight or load added to the engine will quickly diminish any benefit. Other "stored" energy like dry ice will need to be frequently replenished and require a system fitted somewhere on the vehicle, again track application for very small benefit not street.

When you think about this sort of stuff you need to think about in context of the proposed application, many a benefit will stand on its own, but not in context of an application, waving arms and taking opposing positions and becoming insulting is just plain stupid, slow down read the information and try to respond in a structured intelligent way.

Otherwise you sound like children with Pokémon cards arguing which character is better.

The point is you are suggesting modifications to road cars that are potentially dangerous, and worst of all, with no real potential benefit, all in the aim of being fully hektik.

You want to fit race mods to street cars and street filtration to a race engine, fully hektik fails all round.


BTW any time you would like to learn the benefits of an engine brace just start a thread.

 

I've already suggested the air brakes thread could/should be in the motor sport section.
This should be also technically but then that's not the issue here is it.

It's not alright to suggest cooling fuel on a road driven Z that gets used on the track from time to time but it is Ok to fit a engine dampener that defies the laws of physics to miraculously produce more torque force from a virtually static engine on a road car?

Oh please give us some credit.

Torque = force times distance, please explain how you are altering either of these to create any benefit from your lump of bling. Remember horsepower & Kilowatts are units of power/force over time so any slight movements backwards and forwards are actually cancelled out and averaged. You might conceivably be able to measure the minute increase of torque from each power stroke but then that all cancels out abruptly in the hollow you have now created from the lack of rebound the standard mounts would create.
You see all you will do with a brace like that or solid mounts is increase the amplitude of the high frequency torque curve created by the engine, not create more area under the graph or more torque over time or power or anything useful.
You're going to rattle the hell out of the strut tower all for nothing, no actual gain that is real world useable. It's a sales pitch you took hook line and sinker, solid mounts on race cars and the like are for a different purpose altogether - strength and reliability being the main gains.

Oh and I forgot - as your dampener attempts to arrest the inherent movements of the engine it will take kinetic energy and convert it to heat energy - and this will then be lost to the surrounding masses (chassis, air etc) so the dampener will actually consume energy.

Now I could be wrong and you may have fitted it for another purpose - please let me know if this is the case.

http://www.aus300zx.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1254567#post1254567

I trust this is in the right section seeing as these parts are not Z32 specific - not that this has any real effect on the technical mater of the subject in any case.

 

Why ASAP?

As far as I am aware the subject is relatively new to the forum and people are discussing options and what they have had, seen and done in the past.
It seems a bit odd you have taken just two examples and then assumed that every install will be dangerous, inefficient and a waste of time.

If Toyota can install a fuel cooler as OEM equipment and pass all the safety testes required to get it on the international market these days what makes you think it is not likely someone from this forum could make something work safely?

There have been a few examples of product already on the market that will work just fine and if installed correctly will be as safe as any fuel system.
Let us not forget the OEM charcoal canister that lives in the FRONT left hand corner of the Z32, this canister contains fuel vapours - far more dangerous than the actual liquid yet I've not seen any bleating about that.
Numerous vehicles have the battery located in the front corners ready to short out in the event of a crash, what makes you so worried about a fuel cooler that might contain at worst ~200mls of fuel and is most likely fitted to a car that has a fire extinguisher as mandatory kit due to its involvement with motor sport.
That time bomb you are so worried about is probably still safer than 50% of the cars on the road.
As for the bleating about debris hitting the cooler under the car etc - take a really good look at the underside of a large selection of vehicles out there on the roads, I think you will find there are FAR bigger things to worry about in OEM stuff for the masses.

 

Could you use tec's to cool down your fuel through a copper block.
I've used tecs for cpu's, ram and water coolers for pc'c. They draw a bit of power but there awesome little things.

 

Something like this

 

I remember when Ferrari introduced cooled fuel into their cars, which prompted the re-writting of the regulations. Their goal was not to produce more power so much as they were not cooling on board the car, but cooling the fuel prior to refueling. They were getting a x amount of laps extra per tank of fuel. The cooler fuel being denser gave a strategic advantage to pit stops.

When it comes to on-board cooling, your testing is good and I definately think it's worth while on a track car where you often have large pumps moving alot of fuel through the rail and high heat soak temperatures on the rail.

The reason your 2deg fuel temp test didn't have great results would likely be around the engine management issues associated with it. Carbs in your case Fuel delivery would be tuned for usual temperatures seen in fuel on an engine at operating temp. EFI systems usually have fuel temp sensors for enrichment during high temp situations, with super cool fuel at 2degrees, you are going to want to run it leaner than you would otherwise as the fuel is much more dense than at normal operating temps and your going to have a greater amount of fuel being delivered at the injector (or jet in your case )

I have always wrapped my fuel rails and lines in heat shielding material and on the VG I run 2 seperate fed rails to keep fuel circulating faster. Never gone as far as coolers. I see the merit, just it's lower on the list of priorities.

 

Definitely a cool bit of kit and has all sorts of interesting applications, but as you said they are fairly inefficient at this stage.

And this is a key point, at this point in time it is accepted that there are no perpetual energy/motion machines, basically there is no free energy.

Those TEC's need to be powered by the electrical system, in turn the alternator will put load on the engine, the problem is there is usually a loss from minor to substantial in the process, so whilst small amounts of power can be produced buy cooling the fuel it will be smaller than the cost to produce it.

THIS IS KEY TO THE ISSUE.

A TEC is great near a wall socket, but on a self contained mobile machine that needs to carry its own energy and systems all at a cost to performance like our street cars, its just not economical.

The problem is that with current technology the net return is very small and any benefit will be negated by the load of the powered system to create it.

Using byproducts of existing systems like AC is not free, not unless you consider running AC full time a requirement. The fuel usage for a couple of HP would be ridiculous.

 

http://www.google.co.nz/#hl=en&outp....,cf.osb&fp=700e55f47b73bf8d&biw=1280&bih=681

Wow that was hard, look at all the examples out there, and information.

If a cooler is positioned correctly in the event of a significant crash the engine will have stopped in any case so at worst ~1.5 sec of pumping (depending on the ECU) a lot of the time when a crash occurs the engine will be stalled regardless of the damage done.
The driver simply runs out of time or focus to depress the clutch or his/her foot will get knocked off - try doing a couple of demo derbies (I have) you will learn a LOT about what goes on when cars hit things.

If you are worried about a fuel cooler getting a hole in it while under the car then you should also worry about fuel lines being ripped off, the fuel filler pipe in the tyre well, the extremely thin fuel tank - maybe just improve your driving and not run stuff over! Can you show me any serious incidents of damage done to Z32s from running stuff over? I've wrecked several Z32s and know all to well what damage is done when crashing over curbs, slamming into parked cars at ~70Kph, hitting concrete walls on race tracks at ~100Kph
Have you any first hand experience with this sort of thing?

I can tell you right now if installed correctly and safely there will be NO safety issues at all with a fuel cooling system so please cross that off your "no can do" list.

 

Although the inital testing is NOT being done on a Z32, when I get this to work it will most likely be converted and be fitted to my ZX, I also initally asked if others had been down this road and this being a zed forum I asume that the answers would be zed related and not of hemi related issue...... I'd have gone to the Hemi6pac forum for that
:rofl:

Further more......
I'm sure the moderators on this site have the menatal abilities to move the topic to a more suitable section if they deem it unworthy of the current location
pehaps your bytchin would be better aimed at them to get the thread moved to where you desire it to be.....

and 15 years ago airbags would have been seen as a joke and should only be fitted to trucks ....... there's 4 cars in my street that are bagged


Again ..... as I said in the inital post .....
we spend litterally billions of dollars on A2A and W2A coolers for the AIR side of things yet happily allow near boiling fuel to mix with that lovely cooled air

The idea of cooled fuel has merit, even you have admitted that or did I not see this in your post....

And yes F1 fuel cooling exists, there is a 2 fold usefulness, the amount of energy/fuel you could get in a tank increasing distance travelled and small power gains

Many forum members have gone to great lengths and cost to gain power increases, some small and others with major increases have over the years been hashed out on the forum as to their benifits, even the engine brace discussion shows that there are those that 'belive" it has merit and those that think its a totally laughable concept on a zed......
If cooled fuel isnt relevant then neither is an engine brace, you should remove ALL the aftermarket items from your car and live life in the standard lane......

The only thing I'm confused about is as to why your so negative on this thread / idea
Seems to me you've spat at it with every reason you can think of......

why ?????
are you concerned that people will spend $$$$ on a fuel cooler rather than an engine brace
:rofl:

Your right, I havent polluted the thread with hundreds of coppied & pasted bits of info just for your satisfaction that there's tangable proof, but as I have found, much of the content would be way above your ability to comprehend it without having dedicated research time behind it so that a basic understanding can be claimed

one needs to fully understand things such as
gas burn rate
gas burn duration
charge density
homogeny
snowball effected burn rates
turbulence, squish & quench


Oh.... "gas' stands for the air fuel mixture pre combustion

just to remind you ..... thats what I'm chasing..... a small increase in power

Is there any proof that can back that statement of potential danger or are we simply to take your word that it might hurt a tad.....
:rofl:




FACT
at no stage have I or any others implied in any way that 'others' should try this at home with a DIY attitude

FACT
I have and will continue to make various pieces of 'equipment' in order to better test and understand the potential of cooled fuel and if that potential has any merit that can be used to gain power in a SAFE way then maybe...... just maybe I'll share it with those also traveling down the performance road.

FACT
I have at NO STAGE posted any test results in the form of data that may sway any other members to be compelled to follow my path, the only info I have posted is what I "feel" from the drivers seat and what I "see" as an overview from my notes.

FACT
I'm too old to ever be seen as "fully hektik"
:rofl:




now .... can we get back to some sensible discussion on the TOPIC at hand



fuel cooling......
not engine braces that may not have been engineered correctly and fitted by a person not fully qualified nor having received the required specific instructions to fit said brace to the specified model thus causing it to fall from the enginebay, striking the road and becomming lodged in the anal passage of the driver ...... mmmm not a bad idea actually

 

quick update.......

construction of a fuel cell has begun, internal pump and quick release fittings for the fuel lines along with a thermal temp sender unit......



oddly enough the size of the fuel cell just happens to be very similar to the same size as the freezer.......
infact I'd say when the cell is wrapped in the thermal blanket it will fit inside the freezer rather neatly.......




its about to get a whole lot colder around here

 

better sort this out now......
My car......
the beastie is a VS Holden Statesman fitted with a modified l67 engine and a heavily ported and underdriven M90 supercharger

Mates car .... (VT holden known as the meanie) & also fitted with a heavily modded l67 with a w2a cooler setup is also being used as a comparitave test bed in conjunction with the statey.


both cars are effectivly "sleepers" and have no visual signs of the performance lurking within, (great attention to detail has even hidden the cooler from view),....
both have sent LS powered V8s home at the drags on several occasions, & both cars are effectively "daily drivers" and can be driven without attracting unwanted attention........ right up until the loud pedal is sent into the carpet


they are infact the best traffic light car around
:br:

 

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1
+1
+1
+1
+1
+1
+1
ADD THAT SHIT UP

anyway ..

BADZX this is what im thinking , for the zed.

get a cooler for the returne next to the diff, somewhere , ( i have not looked yet ) just a normal say oil cooler, ( say b&m )

then get that cooler ( your pic in the first post , with the 2 fans ) and put that where in the original battery spot . ( battery needs to be in the boot )

the fuel line will be there anyway, so its a matter of, blocking the cooler of , so it does not get any heat from the engine, there is a nice little hole there as well where we can get some nice cool air , the only thing is , the original battery plate, where the battery sits, may need to go a little lower so you can fit the fan cooler in.. this is a mad idea,
the only thing i don't like about this is, the cooler next to the diff, anything on the road can hit it and damage it , ( then we got major problems @ 50+ psi of fuel pissing out ) unless we sort of put it in a small box and an air pipe going to it ...

i got no hicass, so the cooler can go right there, in between the diff and the fuel tank , , rubber mounted to the body of the car .

this set up is good, you really never have to look at it, or put water or ice, it seems like a very consistent system .. I LIKE IT ..

WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK . ????

 

What about if you turn your boost up .25 lbs instead , No real need to make your car into a mobile petrol bomb?

 

Liquid to air coolers:
The great thing about these coolers is air will go around some pretty tight corners that debris from the road will not - look up particle separators etc as used in intakes in gas turbines on aircraft for a background and some ideas.

The coolers do NOT have to be mounted in an area that could subject them to any form of danger in an accident or through normal use on the road or the track.
Intake ducts can have screens fitted to them to prevent anything potentially dangerous from passing and mounts can be made to incorporate protective plates that protect from debris and allow for impact absorption in the worst case.

 

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:




When I finally get off my arse and put the 044's in and get a surge tank I'll be putting a cooler on the return line under the car. More so to keep the fuel in the surge tank from getting too hot than anything.