Hi everyone, I would like some advice as to where to take this situation. I've just had a full rebuild of my engine in my zed (new wiring loom, motec management system, etc). First I got a new series II PTU and installed this on the car with the old wiring loom attached and had the wiring sub loom to connect it to the 1990 harness. I did the running in on my engine during this time and all was sweet (using only 0.4bar of boost and redline of 5500rpm running on the motec engine management). Now I took my car to Acacia Ridge Auto Electrics to fit the new wiring loom (95 model) fitted to the car. They did this and plugged up the new series II PTU on this wiring loom. When they went to dyno the car it started to have problems from 3000rpm on wards where it would just start missing and running really rough. Anyway they spent a whole week trying to figure out why this was happening. They eventually found out it was the new PTU provided by fitting my old one back on and all ran sweet. Taking the part back to ttzed revealed that PIN4 circuitry was stuffed, PIN 4 apparantly goes directly to the ECU. Therefore they are stating that the installer fowled up the PTU. Taking this back to Acacia Ridge Auto, they are denying that they stuffed up the PTU, and have charged me $1000 to diagnose. Now of course i've paid the bill cause i wanted my car back and didn't trust in their hands. So i'm at a huge loss - a $450 part with warranty apparantly void due to installation fault, and an installer who is denying they did anything that would cause it to fail with a $1000 bill to match. I want the installer to pay up because i dont trust them, any advice? legal advice? what can I do?
First thing is to dispute the $1000 bill and one week to track down a problem that should have taken less than a day. TTZED should in all rights replace it as it is a sealed unit and no competent installer would have tried to take the unit apart...The PTU can be repaired BTW (K-Zed does a mean soldering session- just ask AZA!) The installer is probably right in that they didn't stuff anything up with the PTU, all they needed do is plug in the two looms to the unit. May I suggest: 1: Your biggest issue should be disputing why it took the installer a week to track down the fault. Any compenent mechanic should know the best process of elimination is to start with the last thing anyone has replaced/touched. In this case, the PTU should have been the first thing checked... 2: TTZED should replace or pay for the repair of the PTU 3: Promise yourself you won't leave your pride n' joy with just anybody. There are a few specialist zed mechanics in Brisbane that probably would have isolated the problem in half an hour... AMEC in Coorparoo, Gavin Wood in Labrador and Proline at Yatala. If you have to give it to a no-name mechanic, ensure you at least give them a printout of the relevant service manual process (the troubleshooting process for ignition takes less than two hours tops ...(enclosed in link). I know, I (and K-Zed) spent several hours going right thru my entire ignition system recently only to find a dud ECU... There are six pins that are connected to the ECU BTW (ef&ec 118)
Re: First thing is to dispute the $1000 bill and one week to track It is good that you paid your bill, if it ever goes to court, that will stand you in good stead with the Judge. They will often judge against you if you refuse to pay what can be seen as a valid bill.
Ask them to explain.....>> Why the PTU worked perfectly when you dropped the car off but was found to be "dead" after it had been in their hands. Does the PTU work at all any more? If it was the PTU that was at fault then you should be able to plug it into another car and duplicate the over 3000rpm problem. If this isn't possible then ask them to please explain that. You could also give them the oportunity to explain it to you in the form of a refund or infront of a judge in small claims court. Of course you only make the last two statements if you are sure you can prove that they had a hand in "killing" the PTU.
Just a couple of things Mark.....>> Firstly, why should TTZ replace a PTU that was in perfect working order when supplied? as can be verified by the fact that the engine was run in with it. I believe Simon has already offered a replacement unit as he has been dealing with Jonty for a couple of weeks now. It was actually Simon who diagnosed the fault with the PTU once it was sent back to him. Has anyone ever tried to repair a type 2 PTU?
Nissan doesn't supply any warranty on electrical goods so if you end up with a stuffed PTU from nissan then your stuck with a stuffed PTU and can't return it. So TTZed can't do a refund on the PTU as they pass on the same warranty as nissan. The PTU is easy to fry if you cross wires up and I assume the auto lec has fried it somehow. I heard the PTU being tried out on Simons (TTZed) 300ZX and it was obvious that the PTU was stuffed as it wouldn't even start the engine. Stuffed if I know what the auto lec was doing to chew up $1000 worth of labour for something so simple and common to find.
I'm sure you've better things to do, so lets do this the easy way..... 1. WRITE a letter to the garage that stuffed the PTU and ask them why the PTU worked when you brought in the car but has been diagnosed 'stuffed' now. Refer to the original tune which showed all was OK, and if the fault existed then, why they didn't inform you. Ask for a WRITTEN reply within 14 days, and if you do not receive one, tell them you will a) assume they have no argument to defend their stance, and b)most likely take this matter further as you seek a refund of $1000, and $450 for the PTU. 2. WRITE to ttzed and ask for WRITTEN confirmation that the PTU they sold you was originally OK, but the product you returned to them had been damaged. If Simon is fairdinkum about the PTU being damaged, he should have no prob supplying this and sticking by the quality of the unit originally sold to you. 3. After receiving a reply from both, or at least ttzed, lodge a claim in the Small Claim Courts / Consumer Affairs for: $450 PTU, $1000 for work carried out that was not required, as the garage caused the PTU failure. DO NOT be intimidated by a return letter from the garage defending themselves, even if it comes from their lawyer. Proceed to the Small Claim Court (or whatever it's called in Qld), as they do not normally allow representation so it will be you versus the garage guy on the day. Also, DO NOT go to a lawyer at this stage, as the standard fee for a letter to the garage to hopefully scare them into reimbursing you will be about $300. Hope this helps. Good luck - keep us posted. CheerZ Vincent
That information wasn't supplied in Jonty's first post, Pete. Only that he had a PTU that Simon assessed was faulty due to the installer's fault. Regardless of damaging the PTU or not (which we'll never know), I think everyone agrees that the installer still should substantiate why it took them a week/$1000 to diagnose a part they actually fitted. Also, could Jonty have damaged the PTU by running around with it plugged into series one wiring connectors (I recall he said he ran a subloom to connect it...) and it finally died whilst at the installers? Unlikely but possible... BTW: Unsure if it's a series one or two that Rob has repaired...
Some more thoughts I don't think you would chase this one in a small claims court. You would risk spending more money and (at best) getting some of the $1000 back. It will cost you your time and sanity too. What about the consumer watchdog? e.g. Consumer Affairs (or your state equivalent). It will cost almost nothing that way. Essentially you would be arguing that their fee was excessive - it shouldn't have taken that long to find the fault. Note that you would have a fair fight, the electrics place might let it drag on for ages hoping you will get sick of it and drop the whole thing, and at best you will get some of your money back. Regardless of who is at fault, you're best to chase down the installer first as to why they charged you so much. Let us know how you go.
Costs If you do go to Court and lose, you may be liable for the defendant's legal costs (as well as of course your own). That itself would run into $1000. This isn't a hard and fast rule - the magistrate may simply order both parties to foot their own legal bills. The first step as another post has suggested is to get your letter ready. We have a precedent letter we use where I work for these things. PM me if you need help.
Consumer Affairs will take you ages. Get your money back first, and .... develop your social conscience later. What you have to understand is that Consumer Affairs will look into it, but not as thoroughly as the Chairperson hearing your case in a court-like setting. Going to court (even if small claims court) is more intimidating to someone than a Consumer Affairs officer trying to chase down the garage owner for his side of the story - he can delay them for absolute ages. Once you have the ammo I referred to earlier, you will be in good standing for a court hearing so you have little to lose. As small claims court matters (matters below $5000) are heard via self-representation, there will be no 'costs' for you to be scared of them claiming in the unlikely event you lose. CheerZ Vincent
Yes, but he did say.....>> That he ran the engine in with the PTU connected. At the bare minimum that would be around 1000ks which is quite a while to be working without a problem. I can say with 99.9% certainty that Jonty could not have damaged the PTU by plugging it into the original wiring loom using the supplied sub loom. I've done a few of these and the connectors are all keyed so you can't stuff it up. It gets a little bit weird once the new loom got installed because the new loom has the new style plugs so the type 2 PTU would have just plugged straight in. I remember Simon mentioning a while back that some shop in QLD had been on the phone to him about the installation of a new loom and trying to get the MAF to work with the MOTEC unit and the fact that the new loom had a different plug with a different number of wires to the original loom (or something to that effect). It just strikes me as odd that the car behaved in the manner of one with a faulty MAF after this, yet after they have hacked up the new wiring loom to wire the type 1 PTU connectors back in everything seems to work, except the type 2 PTU has taken a big hit (voltage wise) to one of the pins and is now internally cooked to the point that it is completely dead. It will not start a car, let alone work up to 3000rpm. There is quite a bit to this story that none of us know, and that the auto electrician isn't telling. PS. It was most likely that Rob repaired a type 1 PTU, as per the tech article. Failures amongst type 2 PTUs are rare, and I do not know anyone who has opened one up.
I've repaired one type 2 PTU...>> the pins along one side were bent because some twit tried to remove the harness without uncliping the wire spring (it wasn't me). Resoldered the pins and plastic welded the case back together. Cheers
I was talking with Simon tonight.....>> And asked him about this and he said that he credited Jonty for the cost of the PTU, but since Nissan have claimed that it was blown due to installation damage it is Simon who wears the cost of the blown PTU.
I've got one I'm looking at at the moment, I'll see if I can take some pics for you and post them... Matt.
Cool......>> Although it probably wont mean a great deal to me I'm curious to see what they changed them to that made the later version (supposedly) much more reliable.
Thanks for input, and thanks simon for the refund. Thanks for all your input. I have already questioned the amount of time spent trying to diagnose the problem. However they were giving me reasons such as; 1) being a new part we didn't suspect that it would be faulty and that I supplied so I was at fault *crap* 2) At the same time my stock fuel pump actually died along with my vari cam gears 3) Then they suspected it might have been the coils 4) then the compression 5) Changed the plugs twice 6) then thought it might be the injectors that were fitted 7) Checked the fuel supply and pressure with new pump walbro fitted by the mechanic (not electrician). Now to do this they charged me 18 hours at $63 an hour. I'm thanking Simon for refunding me the part and hoping to see that refund come through my credit card soon! Although he is hard to get in contact with sometimes at least he sticks to what he says and helps out when things go bad. One thing I dont understand is that they had my car running with the faulty PTU fitted, it just missed under load above 3000rpm, etc. Now I believe this because there were three guys that are telling me this; two from electrician, and an independant mechanic that is also frustrated with the auto elec. Simon reckons the PTU doesn't even work now to even get the engine running. So why has it gone from partially running to now dead as a door nail! The electrician believes new parts just sometimes fail and fail progressively (resisitors etc) and that is the story he is sticking too. That it is impossible for him to blow it up as the Motec can't do that nor his wiring as its been fitted to the new loom (at the point of failure). Many parts of the story don't add up and I'm left with a huge bill with the reason that it is my car. I might try and take it to small claims court.
Submit a copy of the service manual section that deals with ignition faults to substantiate that it should have taken them MUCH less time than it did? Print out page 118 and 119 from this link
