no its not...but continue to laugh all you'd like. You can continue to run the stock inferior oiling system if you want to. That is your personal choice.
Come on Glenn you know me better than that. This is the silver car we are talking about with the full MOTEC data logging. Do you think I would have spent the last 12 months and over US$5000 getting Bill to develop the first prototype integrated dry sump system if I did not need too. Its only cause the silver car is so light and can generate such G-Forces with its Alcon brakes and 1200kg weight on full slicks under cornering and braking that I get those issues. The Red Z and Blue Z don't seem to have issues. Happy to email the oil pressure MOTEC screen shot if you like. In fact as I like to share here it is MOTEC oil pressure screen So those that claim that Z's don't have oiling issues just are not looking closely enough. Any race engine running high HP needs a dry sump. John may claim that his Z had no oil issues but I note he is running a dry sump with his VQ? The Silver Z did plenty of hard racing without running bearings but it did run them a couple of times with the previous owners, (may have been more tune or fuel related, he only had a single holley blue pump!!). There is always the oiling risk (read what Speciality Z say here specialtyz.com blog) and I want to really push the boundaries with this car so makes sense to dry sump. The MOTEC makes it clear there are some oil issues.
see there ya go I had to coerce it out of you though LOL! The crucial information there is the oiling issue only comes about at the extreme end of the scale under high g forces created by big slicks on light cars - not something likely to be encountered by us mere mortals. The dry sump for Johns new engine was an off the shelf item as far as I know so far cheaper to get a hold of & if I'm guessing correctly as John car progressed and got to the stage it actually needed a dry sump system he was ready to move to the new motor in any case. I'm not saying you don't need the dry sump for your silver car Mike, just pointing it out for the novices out there that there are ways to test to see if you do need it. (and having a cheeky stab at you for not going G4 with the coastline car )
Yes my sump is from the same company, Dailey Engineering. One of the other big reasons I went to dry sump, was the VQ had sump clearance issues and the dry sump was just easier. I bought it through Fontana Nissan. https://www.fontananissanracing.com/Dry_Sump_Oil_Pan___Pump.html
Electramotive and other's VG30ET's did not use the stock block, there were several types I believe but one was a deep skirted iron block which in the picture I have looks like it had individual main caps. Seeing their peak power for qualifying was ~1000hp it seems strange that they would go to all that trouble if the stock block, which is basically the same as the VG30DE/DETT block, was adequate.
Hey Tech@EPR, you got me concerned about that statement "stock inferior oiling system". I am about to embark on a fully stock rebuild on one motor and a forged rebuild on another. Please tell me what area of the oiling system you are refering to and what is the correction to it. Sorry for the hijack but I am fast entering panick mode here.
Oil pumps need a make over. Reason why I spend so much time porting them out. The crankshafts oiling setup is only ideal for low speed/low load applications (cross drilled). I modify the cranks oiling system and lastly the blocks oil passages need a make over. Biggest issue is high volume high velocity....I completely change the system to a high volume low velocity, which enables the oil to stay on the required areas longer and it also has a better approach to how its being delivered to the bearings as well. The stock system is by far the worst setup for the power the standard VG30 is making now.
The stock system has proven to be reliable for years now with the only people having issues being those who do not build or service the engines correctly. There are plenty of examples of these engine failing but there are also plenty of examples of these engines lasting 200000Kms+ EPR will tell you the oiling system is crap because he sells modifications to it so it is in his best interests to get you guys worried about it. I've run two stock engines through hell and back with drag racing and burnout displays, sitting at 7KRPM for as long as the tyres will last & generally beating the crap out of them. What let those engines down in the end was the faulty inlet valves, after over 200000Kms of who knows what sort of use & servicing & then being finished off with 25000Km of pretty serious abuse but decent servicing the bearings were in nearly perfect condition!! I've also had an engine that was messed up by an engine shop I had to use at the time (between jobs that had access to the gear I needed) the result was pistons to tight in the bore, pistons overheated and caused detonation, the blow by then emptied the sump. Even after that only the big end bearings on the two pistons that suffered serious detonation showed any signs of stress. The sky is falling mate! would you like some of my acoustic sky supports I sell?
I also believe the stock oil system is adequate for most peoples needs. I have never had an oiling issue with my zed nad its the stock oil pump from 1990. In 4 rebuilds i have used the pump again, each time it is cleaned and measured against the factory specs, it is still in range so i havent changed it. My motor makes around 400rwhp, has done for a long time and i still get 20psi hot oil pressure at idle with an entirely stock lubricating system. Its not a track car but i do give it hell on the street. So EPR, im not knocking your products at all but they are not a requirement for everyone
mungyz....i have no intentions on trying to scare anyone. If you would negate your attitude in the direction of trying to challenge me in regards to the oiling system you may just find that the information I present in regards to an out dated oiling system is to be true. Look at all the other oiling systems in racing applications. And....when I say racing applications i mean everything from F1 to pro stock to your crude diesel racing. ALL of them utilize a high speed oiling...where as the stock nissan system is a low speed. So lets really look at this with a broad view here. You'd rather run a system that is designed for low speed/load in a high speed/load environment just simply because its there? Sorry bud but that doesn't cut it. The stock system has inherent issues for which is a main culprit for tossing rod bearings and a slew of other issues. Feel free to run your crude stock system....it isn't going to affect me in any way shape or form but I will tell you that it isnt "if" you throw a rod bearing its a just a matter of "when" when you utilize the stock system. For those that want to rid of the system and convert to a proven system that does not fail unlike the cross drilled variant they are more than capable of going that route. Think outside the box and I think you'll find that there are a ton of avenues on improvements for this application. Why do you think the majority of my products I offer revolve around the oiling system???? Upgraded oil pan, modified crankshafts, ported oil pumps, windage kits, etc etc. These are all items that aid in resolving issues with this engines main problem. I think you need to re-evaluate your statements in trying to pre judge what ppl are doing...in particularly...with me. Just because you've had 2 engines that have lasted for you doesn't mean they last for everyone else. Lets face it the common issue for VGs is the oiling system itself. You can not deny that and if you do you are shooting yourself in the foot.
never in any area of my posts did I state that my products were a requirement. Please do not put words in my mouth or skew my statements regarding my advice or concerns. My offerings, that do help/aid/resolve issues are up for anyone to take advantage of. Some don't want to and some do. Its a choice owners can make and I will not and do not judge others for not buying my products or put attention to said systems. In the end its their car/their engine...they can modify and choose to run whatever system they choose.
I've seen and worked on plenty more than just my own engines, they were just my own personal examples. I'm not interested in playing pissing contests with noisy Americans, just pointing out to people you DO NOT have to run with silly little mods to the oil system ANY decent engine shop can do in a heart beat. Take it from someone who actually sees the engines in the car, the bulk of failures are caused by poor workmanship and maintenance NOT faulty design. The bulk of failed Vgs I have seen have actually been rebuilt motors - that's something to consider when calling the stock design crap. It's all to easy to blame this that and every other thing just to create extra work on the job rather than just build the damn thing correctly in the first place.
Actually while I'm at it I might as well point out to you that the common failure here in NZ for these engines is the cooling system NOT the oiling system, and this fails due to a lack of maintenance not poor design. And also I have my own improvements I make to the oil system when I feel like it - i just don't make a big song and dance about it that's all Oh and my foot is just fine thanks - how's yours?
OK thanks for the responses guys, I am sure there are more than myself here that are still a bit unsettled on the oiling system issue and especially myself due to minimal experience on the VG and would like to hear what one could do to improve the system (not expecting any of your top secret mods) but general tips, do's and don't's......would anyone like to explain in detail perhaps? I would really like a warm feeling once the motor is all closed up and sitting in that engine bay. One issue I have come across is the slight misalignment of the ACL main bearing oil hole to the crank....have been assured by ACL that it is not a problem (they acknowledge the problem and said they will correct their production and unfortunatly did not offer to replace my bearings).
Thanks for calling americans noisy...mature. theres no such thing as a silly improvement to an oiling system...if it improves its function its done for a purpose. But to each their own I guess...you have your way of doing things and I have mine. I don't see much of your work or what you do so I won't and can't speculate on how your systems run and so forth. But I can tell you that from my own workings that my systems and avenue towards oiling has been a proven step in aiding in the flaws in the system. I guess youre saying that you are the only one that sees flaws in engines? Spare me. I see plenty of stock applications that fail just as much as rebuilt applications. Common denominator...oiling system. The stock oiling system is inadequate for the power levels the majority of individuals are achieving now. Do many have those power levels and more and still have them running....sure...but could the system be better and run more efficient and well equipt...ABSOLUTELY! While its great for the lower realm of power (300-450rwhp) anything above that the stock system shows itself to be of an issue. To build a system correctly in the first place you have to fix the issues that cause the problems...you'd know that since you see all these issues with all the engines you've seen personally. And to touch up on your statement about the common issues with it being coolant issues that has to do with exactly what you said...maintainence......if anyone is going to build an engine to handle and run with consistancy and want to fix apparent problems that are known to the platform...they deal with those first before they continue to build and stack power and compound issues. And for the record theres no song and dance...no ones tap dancing over here....but you seem to sing quite well. take it for what its worth. The majority of issues for the vg30s is the oiling system PERIOD. Read around...ask others who build these engines...talk to Nissan engineers and those that built these engines back in the day and they will all tell you...the vg30 has oiling issues that cause a significant amount of failures repeatedly. Here is food for thought....Escort Racing changes all the rod bearings after every single run when they drag race. Reason!!!....becuase the oiling system literally starves itself when escalated into the upper realm of load/rpm. How do I know this!?!?!....I know the lead technician at Escort Racing (Miyano Son) I've seen enough and know enough to know when a system has an issue causes more problems than not and how to work on resolving it without having make it out to be some voodoo taboo situation. It is what it is and thats that....if you don't believe me its not sweat off my back...i deal with it every day. In the end its the owner who decides on what they want to do. I have my ways on doing things and if the consumer wants to run my systems and parts thats their choice.
I didn't call all Americans noisy I said "I'm not interested in playing pissing contests with noisy Americans" that does not say ALL Americans are noisy does it!? it might refer to you being noisy & by noisy I might be referring to a lot of pictures and posts but no results. We see a few build threads but no power numbers or completed engines or engines even in the cars - why? that's the song and dance I'm talking about, the one with all the pictures but no dyno charts, the one with the engines on a stand but never in the car. Again please step back down in to the real world of NORMAL use for these engines NOT extreme examples & you will have to concede what was designed and built does the job it was designed for just fine. It even takes the engine through a long way further than what it was designed for just fine. Forget about using 1000Hp + engines as examples that's just plain stupid as 99% of users do not require or want that sort of power. Your bashing away at the keyboard trying to tell me the biggest problem these engine have is the oil system, I'm telling you it's not the case here by a long long way. TTs overheat and blow hoses then die from lack of coolant, NAs go far to many miles on old oil and eventually run big end bearings due to sludge blocking galleries & the oil pick up etc. Those are the two biggest killers here - neither of them are a design flaw that needs to be "fixed". A lot of the rod bearings that go in TTs are from poor tunes beating them to death with piss poor oil quality adding to the demise but oh no lets tell everyone they need to get in the oil pump with a die grinder & piss about with the galleries in the crank :rofl::rofl: Of the dozens of engines I've pulled down I've seen three with spun rod bearings, two TTs and one NA ALL of them had poor maintenance or tune as the biggest factor in death. Lets keep the examples in the real world that these forum members here will relate to NOT stupidly high power units where we ALL know most items on the engine will require some form of modification.
Im not having a crack at you or your products. and i agree that there is a time and place for an upgraded oiling system, for a track car of any kind or for a high horsepower engine . Thats a fact. Also i know you didnt say that it is a requirement for every motor. BUT i will take issue with your statement about lubrication causing the majority of engien failures. This may be true in your experience, and thats your opinion. But out of probably 25 VG30's ive done, only 2 from memory had failed due to insufficient lubrication. In my experience cracked piston ring lands are the most common thing. So the engines i do have stock lubrication components and they are fine. For those building a stock or street motor, my opinion is that the oil system is adequate.
again..you view your engines and build yours your way and I'll continue on my path in how I see things. The end.
i guess my avenue on building power is completely different than most others. I look at inefficiencies in a system and work on those first before compounding power and other issues into the mix. Just because its worked for some doesn't mean it works for all and not to mention just becuase it works doesn't mean its right. thats all Im going to say about this.
Fair enough Mr EPR. like i said, i want suggesting you were wrong or that i dont agree with your practices. I was adding my opinion into the mix for those embarking on an engine rebuild and viewing this thread.
