Water to Air Intercooling

Discussion in 'Non-Z Related' started by Anti, Apr 5, 2014.

  1. QLDZDR

    QLDZDR ID=David

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    The tech has been around since the Zed.
    Toyota had it on the second generation of Celica gt4
    So if you do it, you will need a couple of vented bulges in your bonnet.
    [​IMG]
     
  2. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

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    Bulges??? What for?

    This is my (ghetto) setup. Its pure function over form.So spare me any appearance comments which will be treated with the contempt they deserve. I have zero interest how things look, only how they perform. The piping is from one of those lightweight generic Ebay alloy piping kits I was given. I tried Tig'ing it together...........fail.

    Cooler radiator is quite large in this setup. Not a hell of a lot of water volume but a lot of radiating area.

    And perform this system does. Spectacularly well!
    I dont even bother with an auxiliary radiator fan in traffic and just let the radiator fans take care of that when they come on.
    FWIW, I use a specific centrifugal waterpump from a supercharged Mustang. Cool bit of clobber, fully sealed pump with a magnetic drag clutch drive.

    [​IMG]

    Waterpump and radiator. No playing around here!

    [​IMG]

    E
     
  3. stumagoo

    stumagoo Active Member

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    and have you even really read some of the posts above....normally I have no issues with your comments. but I helped install and go wheeling often with my boss and he has W2A. I dont claim to know everything about it but I have seen how it works on his toyota and how it compares to similar vehicles with A2A.
     
  4. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

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    So... you "helped" install a system... go for a ride occasionally with your boss....cool, and?
    I think my point above has been slightly missed a couple of times, however I cant be arsed spelling it out a little clearer, so meh.

    Lets just say I fitted and commissioned both an efficient W2A and A2A systems from scratch to 2 of my turbo cars along with hard DATA from both installs to back up the results of subjective testing.

    Gives me a certain amount of ammunition on the subject compared to the vast majority. So far, only one other here has shown the same experience.

    Cheers
    E
     
  5. stumagoo

    stumagoo Active Member

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    When I say I helped I dont mean I passed tools etc I mean I positioned components (after researching best locations) I ran pipework, I did enough to know exactly how it works. I am also a qualified plumber (NZ) and have installed many water based intercooling/radiator type systems. I do know my way around this sort of concept. I have limited experience in this particular application but my knowledge is far from limited in the area of liquid heat exchange. I have designed and installed many solar water heating alternaitve water heating systems. This is very similar. I have also installed quite a few liquid cooling systems for PC's (as well as air cooled). I am not trying to start a pissing competition and I am most definately not calling into question anyone elses knowledge based on what has been posted above. please have a little decency to do similar.
     
  6. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

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    PMSL, A pissing competition is precisely what your headed into! very good plumber man. Im impressed.
    However, I dont need to bignote myself with whatever qualifications I might have.
    But, I have the luxury of subjective testing/comparison along with hard data which makes me able to draw an informed opinion on both systems, for and against and this is what the OP originally asked for.

    Onwards and upwards.

    E
     
  7. ZedXTT

    ZedXTT #TEAMROB

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    Best advise for how to get something done.
     
  8. Anti

    Anti 14.7 x 14.7 = 44.1

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    Thanks for all the discussion guys. Good read.

    I'm developing ideas at the moment and decision making in my head whether I'll take them further.
     
  9. supersonic

    supersonic New Member

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    Say, Anti, you never mentioned what car you're considering the system for.

    I'd highly recommend EVERYONE here reading the series of articles on intercooling on the autospeed.com.au website (syntax posted the link above). I think it will help us all expand our understand how an a2w cooler works.

    Far as I know (unlike tas, I'm one of those know-it-all-in-theory blokes), an a2w system is great for throttle response by having shorter and more direct intake piping from filter to head. No need for it go all the way around to the bumper and back.

    As well as aforementioned benefits, space restriction is another reason to go a2w as an upgrade from top mount in something like a navara or patrol diesel, for example. The water pump doesn't need a high flow rate and doesn't need to run constantly due to the high heat soak ability (latent heat or something I forgot the correct term). Run the thin water pipes from the cooler to a small radiator (size of a large oil cooler be plenty) at the pump, switch the water pump on a preset thermostat and voila.

    In a z32, the only way would be a custom HE integrated plenum like the 370z kit shown above. Reckon it'd be good for track use actually, if it improves throttle response enough. Think how short the piping would be to go from intake, to turbo to manifold! Plus the gurus above did mention stable IATs...
     
  10. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

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    This throttle respose and lag chestnut comes around time and again with piping length.
    IF the piping is well designed, lag does NOT increase and there is no noticeable change in throttle response.
    It is true that air has some mass and requires some energy to get it moving but not enough to cause crap throttle response and boost lagging as some of the hysterical comments that regularly get bandied about.

    This is the very same bullshit puked out by the very same mouths that insist on claiming that you can have the same boot pressures yet one boost pressure magically results in higher airflow thru the engine than another boost pressure of the same psi... please.

    When I added the FMIC to my Pullstart, I also added several meters of 2.5" piping on each side of the cooler which is a big farkoff "Hybrid" brand bar and plate 600 x 300 x 75 thing. Its allegedly a high performance Japanese boutique tuning house brand. All this on a 1.5 litre turbo engine.

    I paid a lot of attention to pipe runs and direction changes and yet I noticed NO discernible difference from no cooler at all to several meters of piping and an extremely large FMIC yet I was sposed to introduce lag city to that little engine!! The preposterous idea that the air is so "compressible" that the turbo takes a lot of time to "fill" the pipes and cooler and that pressure "wave" travewl thru the length of pipes... baaahahahahah!!!!!!.........gah!

    There is this stupid notion the it takes a lot of time to firstly, build boost at the turbo and then send that boost pressure down the pipe with the poor little gasping engine at the other end, turbocharger wheezing away at full boost and effectively plugging the hot side of the engine while the pressure slowly crawls thru the cooler system pressurising everything as it goes... FINALLY to arrive at the engine, too late to make any different in that particular gear.....please!!!

    The pressure rise at the turbo will be matched very quickly by the pressure rise at the throttlebody and only a really badly set out and fabricated pipe system will limit boost/flow off more than a couple of psi and this is largely at the very maximum flow rate of the engine.

    E
     
  11. supersonic

    supersonic New Member

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    Take it easy tas I'm only n00b. Don't have anywhere near your level of experience. But thank you for sharing. I should've actually stopped and had a look at your pics before posting. :(

    So according to tas, throttle response benefits are negligible. I like your ghetto set-up. Are your charge air temps better with a2w? Is your pump running constantly or on a thermostat/switch? Any way you could move the HE to the top of the engine, or go twin?I suppose that'd be purely aesthetic.

    I had a stock TT (only cat-back exhaust) and thought the throttle response was great, even off boost. Max boost (stock 9psi) at 2500rpm. Mid-range felt better than my mate's BA xr8. Can't complain with that.
     
  12. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

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    Wasnt having a shot at you Super. Sry if it came across that way. Not intended at all. I just got on a roll.

    The waterpump runs whenever the ignition is switched on. The setup also calls for a smallish cooling fan to run as well to help reduce heat buildup in traffic. I didnt fit mine due to space issues but in practice, and the fact my twin cooling fans run a lot when going slow, the cooler system doesnt get that hot.
    The system holds quite a few litres of coolant and the radiator has a lot of area so it looses any heat surprisingly quickly once the fans run or the car moves.

    I have done quite a few driving data logs and inlet temps on a highway drive while cruising are very close to ambient. Ive seen inlet air temps as low as -4 on a chilly Hobart morning. Ive pulled over and quickly popped the bonnet and the turbo discharge pipes are hot as expected and the post cooler pipes are near frozen!!!! its kinda cool.... No pun!

    W2a is fiddly and relatively complicated to set up initially. I had to use a water cooler as there is no room in front of the radiator on my Navara Ute to fit a decent FMIC without hacking the bumper bar to pieces. Plus I like the fiddling!
    I cannot stand the look of cars hacked to pieces and big FMIcoolers hanging out like a dogs tongue!!!!!!!! Looks totally ridiculous to me. I like stealth!

    Would I choose a water cooler over an air cooler if space was not an issue......? The engineer and tinkerer in me says shit yer but the practical side of me says no.

    E
     
  13. Anti

    Anti 14.7 x 14.7 = 44.1

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    I am of course considering this for my zed. why? because it would be cool, and that's the entire premise the car is built under, so why not
    is that an impeller pump? I remember reading somewhere that it is; any issues running it whenever the ignition is on?
     
  14. BLACK BEAST

    BLACK BEAST SLICKTOP TT R-SPEC

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  15. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

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    Its a specific (100% duty) W2A pump. Ford Cobra IIRC.
    Not cheap tho.
    Draws a bit over an amp so insignificant current draw for full time use. Its all but silent in operation. Less noise than an intank fuel pump so youll never know if its going unless you listen carefully for it with the motor and audio killed.

    E
     
  16. syntax_X

    syntax_X Zed Head

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    Thoughts on Dry ice? Its only 10 bucks a kilo at the moment... And the condensed moisture could even clean the heads!

    http://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au-boc-industrial-store/dry-ice
     
  17. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

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    Works fine with icebox type coolers. Doesnt last too long!!!!!!
    Drag guys have fun with it.

    E
     
  18. MORBOOST

    MORBOOST Member

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  19. SrAfciGeR

    SrAfciGeR Member

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    Location:
    Sydney NSW, Australia
    I love W2A but bit out of topic... Best way to cool of hot air is to mix it with extremely cold gas...

    For example Liquid LPG Injection Systems when injected LPG expands to -42°C... Only negative about this system is the size of injectors, And the price of the system itself... But there are S/H units these days... In early days injectors were freezing but they overcome those issues these days...
    Few years back that I have checked biggest injectors for falcon's were in 500hp range...

    Price of LPG is still at bargain price, and ratio to petrol with this system is 1:1 with no loses...
    Propane is 112 octane rating where Butane is 94... Mixed or whatever you get on the pump will be over 100...

    Too small for my build but fore some might be the way to go...
     

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