Discussion in 'Non-Z Related' started by Anti, Apr 5, 2014.
Dude Nem's not a forum hero he's a good bloke and well researched and thorough
And others are not ?
And his prospective is the only one that counts ?
And just broad bagging of something because of the incorrect assumptions he has made, and talking down to others.
Yeah he sounds like an ace guy that knows what he is talking about. :rofl:
Sorry didnt realise this was non zed related.
Unless your running methanol there really isn't much better than air 2 water for stable AIT.
Not sure how it goes for a track car can't comment. For drag it keeps the tuning stable.
I would love a inline engine so running water 2 air would be easy.
okay at this stage I'd like to refer to the thread title... Actual experience on the topic, not theory. I'd like to discuss stuff like pump speeds and heat exchangers. If there's no one I'll lock the thread thanks
Mmmm... Like WTA
I agree but **** you wouldn't know it from this thread
Edit: Anti, you work at tunehouse don't you? Ask the tuner there, i'm sure he's done one or atleast knows someone who has and would have the best experience.
Back on topic... I found this to be a good read
HAHAHAHAHHA man even im going to jump in and give you a pat on the back for this comment, i agree 100%
a good water system is one of the best ways to make good power , any form of water spray BEFORE COOLER is really good , but dont over think the system , and dont over spray( water )
these systems work very good on any car stock, mild modded, or heavy mod.
anti i think your going the right way about it , but i also do agree that water meth is a better option ,
but to say water does not work , just shows how much he knows , and i for one would not listen that .
anti either system WILL work and work damm well , you do not need an under plenum cooler that is a new design for superchargers and blowers , and that really only because that the (RIGHT/ GOOD ) way of doing it with those types of charged systems .
anyway anti, stay on track as you are and build what you think is best but like i said with today's equipment i do think water meth is best, it faster its consistant and will cool more
just my 5 sen
Here's this too
http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced Engine Tuning/Air to Water Intercooler Design.html
I never wrote it doesn't work or is crap, i wrote there's better(read: easier/cheaper) options on a Z32. Water/meth is the bomb though.
Interesting, thanks for this
gee i really dont miss these kinds of arguments
Why not consider wax instead of water as a mass to cool your intake temps?
Sorry to hijack a thread asking for experience (not really) but in theory..
An air to water intercooler is really an air to water to air intercooler. As such in the steady state - IF that steady state consists of continuous boost - then the air to water to air intercooler is not going to be intrinsically better than a straight air to air intercooler. The water just becomes an unnecessary middle man adding unnecessary weight.
However as the above (excellent) link points out - if your car is not being operated as a track car but is an everyday driver or even a drag racer so that boost is only being applied for several seconds interspersed with at least several minutes of off boost driving, then your intercooler is actually acting like a heat sink.
And when it comes to being a heat sink water is excellent due to its much higher specific heat than any metal.
Bottom line is Air to water (to air) intercooling has potential to be great for drag racing and on your everyday driver (if you can get it to fit) but will not be not so much of an advantage on a track car.
AS mentioned before my boss has one, I helped install it on his hilux. it works a treat offroad where his vehicle spped is low and airflow over the radiators is minimal. where most the others have patrols with A2A - and they tend to get very hot his is doing wonders. unfortunately I have no figures / flowrates etc but his is a full kit ie bought as 1 package. I am not sure how much better it is on road but off road and slow work I believe it is the better type. On road however I am not sure, I feel that the rewards would be diminishing but in hot ambient temps if you have a good radiator (for the A2W) the A2W should in theory work better. The heat soak capabilities of water are obviously superior to air cooling alone otherwise we would all have air cooled VW's even modern motorcycles have moved to liquid cooling but you need to have a sufficient radiator and I can not stress that enough.
air/water intercooler has its merits on certain applications .. no debating that.
But Anti as I said ,on your car (Z32),for your power and usage... stop wasting money and time on unnecessary things . money better spent elsewhere .
You will be my age by the time your car is finished and like me you will realise what an idiot you have been
Undoubtedly the best(and most accurate)Post in this thread. Well said Beast.:zlove::br:
Well, what is crystal clear here is not ONE of you has EVER used or had anything to do with W2A.
Why is it that the loudest opponents of a particular system (in this case W2A) are universally the ones who have NEVER actually used said system. NOR have actually bothered to thoroughly research the setup before dismissing it out of hand altho they ALWAYS know some brother in law's cobbers cousin who had one and reckoned it was rubbish.
It is true, W2A is more complicated, expensive, heavier and labour intensive to fit and commission.
Also true that fitting to a Z32 is going to result in long pipework. So what? Long piping, if its been well setup, results in no issues.
Now, altho an air cooler can actually lower the outright inlet temps further and quicker than a watercooler, a water cooler is far more thermally stable which is far more desireable, especially to a tuner,, than the loss of a few additional Kw due to slightly elevated inlet temps unless your some kind of dyno queen wanker.
Why do you think old F1 turbo cars almost universally ran water coolers . They were using incredibly agricultural engine computers! The thermal stability at the fairly high boost pressures they employed was far more desireable than the loss of a couple of Ft/Lbs of torque.
The cooler core, due to its far more efficient heat sinking and transfer ability and is typically less that 50% of the size of an equivalent air core and can be placed anywhere and at any angle.
The cooler core presents only a fraction of the resistance to airflow and increased pressure side volume (if that bothers you at all)
The water radiator ideally needs to be placed into the airflow, best in front of the engine radiator which does inhibit airflow to the radiator to a certain extent but this restriction is FAR less than having a bar and plate aircooler 75mm and thicker in front. The W2A radiator is typically a similar thickness to an aircon core. The key here is maximum frontal area.
Its often very difficult to fit up a decent sized air cooler and have it stealthy and without major cutting up of front end panelwork.
On my Navara (Ute Of Death), for instance, you cannot fit an FMIC without major grille and bumper/reo bar cutting/modification.. Simple as that.
Can also suffer from some heatsoaking from a hot radiator when parked for short periods of time but this is NO different to an FMIC.
It should have a fan attached and running whenever the car is stationery or in traffic to prevent heat buildup in the water.
Once again, the superior thermal stability of the system advantage outweighs the minor loss of torque due to the temporarily elevated inlet temps.
Its fair to say that the advantages of a watercooler are not sufficiently there against the higher initial purchase price and fiddly installation "IF" a decent front or side mount air cooler can easily be fitted.
How do i know all this?
I've ran a water to air cooler setup on my turbo 720 for at least 2.5 years. I looked into using a frozenboost setup from the states, but settled for the "kit" that comes factory in the rs liberty. Initial results were very pleasing. While the initial setup ran a cross over pipe with no cooling, the w2a instantly saw intake temps drop a good 30-40%. This was while daily driving with plenty of wot moments and traffic jams etc, small capacity engine, 10 psi max boost. While the size of the radiator plays a crucial role in maintaining a steady water temp the flow rate of the pump also is critical. The pump in its simplest form is a bilge pump. Plenty of volume but with little pressure. This allows for as much heat soak as possible by the cooler core and absorption by the radiator.
Like tas, space was a problem with my setup. Fortunately the liberty setup fit near on perfectly. While slightly fiddly to initially setup, the netted results were worth the hassle. I definitely would look at a w2a kit again if the situation arises again.
Depending on the application, you have to choose wisely as to what size cooler and radiator is required to do the job. There's no point getting the biggest cooler you can fit while you compromise with the rad. Long term continuous use will see the temps rise as the system bottlenecks. The beauty of these setups is the reduced pipe work linking the turbo to the intake. My setup had a 20cm pipe from the turbo to the cooler and maybe 50-60cm from the cooler to the intake. Boost response was pretty sharp. So in the tuner world that would be a positive and a win.
Like everything there will be pluses and negatives to all setups. For my requirements, the w2a setup was a positive choice. And as stated I would look into it again should the situation ask for it.
umm I actually do run W2A intercooler on my AMG SL55.
it is a more complex setup and can suffer from heat soak ,ECU compensates by disengaging the clutch on the supercharger pulley.. safe mode.
(if driven consistently hard)
A simple $600 HE upgrade fixes this ..along with a new version bosch intercooler pump $180
MERC wouldn't of used it if it wasn't a good setup .
At the end of the day however you look at it ...this thread really is about W2A and the Z32.
not viable IMO...MORE COMPLEX ..NO ROOM .. GAINS ???? hmmmmm
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