There is foam and there is foam. It comes in an array of properties from foam rubber that you stuff cusions with, thru blown "Coolite" foam (think takeaway coffee cups) Hard foam such as a surfboard core to structural stuff that is as resilliant and hard as the absolute hobs of hell yet still light. Lets be clear, we are not talking a pressure pack of expanding foam you blow into cavities when building ok? Im talking real mans clobber. I can think of some 2 part foam I have personally used, which wont bend over you knee or twist in your hand. In fact, it will most likely break your leg before you break it. It has enormous impact resistance and does not shatter glass-like. It requires a farking sturdy cold chisel and a lump hammer and a shit-tonne of patience to remove. I know all this and I shit you not. I have mixed it, poured it, finished it and had to remove the farken stuff.... Im willing to bet that the kind of foam touted as useful for chassis rail stuffing is fairly similar. When contained/restrained withing the confines of a box section tube, such as a chassis rail, I would predict a significant increase in stiffness as a plain beam (being bent) and torsionally (twisted) Light guage box section, such as a chassis rail, even allowing for the addition of a floor pan tyeing it together with another rail, has little resistance to twisting from corner to corner unless significantly braced. Think a rollcage. Ignoring the intrinsic safety factor, rollcage builders spend countless hours designing the tubework to reduce/eliminate twisting of the chassis. Now, I still support the theory of foam filling with some decent shit, not just a fancy flexible surfboard foam, but like stated above above, whether I could actually determine any measurable difference when I drive is certainly debateable. I believe its certainly worth investigating. After all, it can only run to a little money. Some people here unload very seriously stupid wads of money into pointless modifications such as giant brakes, multi-plate carbon race clutches, ally radiators, hideously expensive and equally useless boutique synthetic lubricants and so-on with NO hope of any real world, on-the-road improvements or indeed thousands of dollars into bling and other shiney and expensive electronic gadgets/trinkets that ultimately serve no real useful purpose whatsoever other than to impress the tyre kickers at the local chew and spew and give the owner some cock-swinging ammunition at the bench racing sessions (in most cases, read cock-swinging here). If a few dollars worth of stiff.. and I mean STIFF structural foam resulted an just a tiny amount of additional stiffness and a subsequent improvement in road manners, (notwithstanding and already stiff(ish) Zee chassis) then thats a few dollars and a few hours work well spent. In addition to a legion of front strut and rear shock braces fitted and largely doing SFA apart from LOOK stiff, might actually add up together to something worthwhile. Possibly and EXTREMELY cost effective stopgap against a full chassis strip and weld job and subsequent rebuild. Worst case scenario, no real world difference and a few hours and dollars wasted. Meh! It MIGHT just work tho. E
How many LB/ inch or foot or whatever it is are you looking at?? Ping me the brand and further details and I will take a look. The ones I have seen are two parts, so you will need to mix both with a drill quickly and pour into a funnel feeding into the holes with about a 35-40 sec window before it starts to expand and become unworkable hence why working in pairs is best....
Yeah @ SuperZ the spray can foam in not what we are looking for it has to be a 2 part solution otherwise it will be the foam you get from bunnings that will crack and crumble. From my research I have a few take aways: *Suppliers of Marine foam as well would work which are in abundance *Marine foam comes in a variety of densities 2lb - 16lb. *At around 8-12+lb it will be plenty tough enough for the rails for what we are looking to achieve. *I think for the A pillars 2-4lb will be fine *The density is what we need to validate from the supplier *Should be a 2 part solution we need to mix and mix FAST *End result =:br:[TIS]
No mate - we get the proper stuff! No mate!!!! We get the proper automotive stuff - it comes in two cans combined You just press go and it flows in There is no mixing at all mate! It only takes one person - seriously! You don't need to go drilling holes mate!!!!!! I will show you the access points on video - there is plenty of them!! I have already given the density figures - this is not bunnings stuff! Its proper automotive foamsee here http://www.foam-seal.com/ JC
Yep bring your cold chisel and hammer! "It requires a farking sturdy cold chisel and a lump hammer and a shit-tonne of patience to remove." Sounds like you have used the same type of foam as me before E! Yep - this is what the website talks about - very easy foam that sets rock hard under high expansion after 1 minute! I would not want to fill a paper box with this stuff and then get hit in the head with it under force - it will most probably knock your lights clean out! Kapow ! I am waiting for the specific product specs so I can get the correct MSDS to confirm it has a very hard glass composite compound - but I expect this based on its properties and density. We are talking proper automotive foam here approved by GM/Ford and Nissan etc not some bunnings shit! Have taken the time to hunt this proper foam down all around the world and back to and Australian Distributor - this is the right stuff we need (60A) You are correct in context and common sense to acknowledge this is relatively inexpensive - especially compared to other mods worth hundreds or thousands! If you indeed have parts missing - I can assure you that it ain't many! Cheers E :bow2: JC
Try driving your car on NSW Public Roads WITHOUT Rims, Number Plates and/or Front Bumper(which was on the car when I purchased it). As for bigger turbo's, my turbo's are Hi-flowed STOCK UNITS which seized(and brought about an engine re-build). The fact that Garrett Turbochargers in Sydney was a customer of mine(and offered to do the work for free)is the ONLY reason they were Hi-flowed. By the way, since when is "tracking" your car considered "illegal"? Just for the record, my Z32 has NEVER been "tracked" during my ownership(a moot point, but somewhat relevant given your ill-informed rant). What any of this garbage has to do with "Foam-filling a chassis" is beyond my ability to decipher.
So you think 60A density? but why not 70A? You only get one go at this. Once it goes in, it doesn't come out so you can put the higher density in.
This thread has gotten completely out of hand. It is obvious that SuperZ has his mind set on this, and not much will sway him, so this back and forth is unnecessary. I personally do not believe that foam filling will do much, but, I am keen to see results SuperZ. Surely, there has to be some way to test its effectiveness that you are able to do, and prove everyone wrong? How ever, I did find this nice little bit of maths online, so might be worth having a read Basically, this topic got me reading about Foam Filling, and from what I can see, foam filling CAN make a difference if the car was designed to be foamfilled from the get go. Retro-fitting it how ever, does not make a major impact.
Thats all well and good, but there is no test results. For all I know, it could be a placebo effect. I'm not doubting that it may make a difference, but from a nights worth of reading, i have to say that I don't believe it until i see some actual tests.
What sort of tests do you want to conduct?? If I do this and report back what difference does it make from that article in swaying your opinion then? I have researched a fair bit on this and seat and of the pants feel, lessening of NVH, giving it a newer solid car feel is good enough for me. I dont give a crap what science says around it working or not and even if it doesnt handle any better if it gives it a new lease of life and gets rid of some creaks and rattles that would be amazing! If you look into it the skyline and silvia boys have tried it with great seat of the pants results I doubt its always been placebo effect..... When in the article it states that it feels like it almost has a cage that is a VERY big difference and I feel could not be placebo if you think about it.
I think this stuff has to be tested on a Vert Test before: go for a quick drive to the shops to loosen up the car and then jack up the rear driver's side wheel and rest the rear jack point on a stand. Measure the diagonals (using some existing mark) from the top of A pillar to diagonally opposite B pillar. Leave it for 30 mins and measure and record this data again. Next day prepare the car for foam injection by jacking up the 4 load points of the chassis on a level concrete floor. Inject it and leave it to cure. It is a two part foam so I would let the car cure for much much longer than recommended. Reassemble whatever interior plastics were removed. Test after: do exactly as the previous day. Measure and record the results. Followup testing: do the same test a week later then a month later and get an indication of how long the stiffening will last. The ongoing benefits will be a change in harmonic vibration of the chassis and the sections will be internally coated with waterproof foam.
This is the early recommendation This is the company's early recommendation for the Z32 I am still waiting for confirmation on this and other details - they are flicking me around to the better qualified experts on this matter at the moment JC
Your going off a different type of foam altogether as tassuperkart pointed out - go back and do your maths again with the correct stuff once I give you the MSDS - this is not POLYSTYRENE FOAM! :zlove:
Your correct - cheers Sorry - Your correct - the company has the same name which was confusing me - I have since been redirected To clarify others - I live 200m away from the ocean and my reason for consider doing this is for rust prevention of the chassis rails - any other benefits I take as a bonus - but I am considering this for rust prevention purposes and I think this is very viable. Regards JC
Here is the foam! See this and read it if you havent! Seems many have missed or skipped over this post mate! This was the post that initially led me to believe it was viable - some should read the information and see what claims they are making in relevance to it - it is convincing and sounds like they know a little about what they are talking about! "Structural foam, in the 2 lb per cubic foot density that we used, can stiffen chassis members up to 40 percent. Higher densities of foam can increase stiffness by up to 300 percent." "Do not--I repeat--do not attempt to use cheap, hardware-store canned foam. This is not the same thing, and if injected into your chassis, will form a gummy mass that won't dry. Foamseal foam is a professional grade foam, which although it is a little unforgiving to cleanup mistakes, has superior mechanical properties and catalytic curing so it will dry even in an enclosed space." Seems like it will take a little time to get to the bottom of this - but I am persevering and will follow this to the end- I want this product and the MSDS so I can then compare to others Here is the company I was redirected to - at this stage Foamseal is a registered product under that name - but it seems others are using the name in a misleading way - hence I have been chasing my tail around for a little while but getting somewhere now http://www.futuracoatings.com/data/ProcessForm.php Remember - this not polystyrene! - it is polyurethane high catalytic based (sets hard) (similar to your existing suspension bushings - but harder) and the two are a completely different thing! Cheers JC
Here's the thing How much movement do you think there is in the Z32 chassis at present? What exactly are they trying to say when they say it increases stiffness by up to 300%? are they saying it takes three times as much load to move the chassis the same amount - or are they saying they have added material with an equivalent stiffness three times more than the original material? Two very different things that sound very similar but actually make a big difference to the end result - clever marketing tactics to make things sound awesome when they might not be as awesome in practice. Let's run through a basic run down of what's going on, I'll use some random figures that I've just pulled out of thin air but will be close to actual figures. Let's say the total amount of twist/flex in the cars chassis is 10mm from one corner across diagonally to the other under normal conditions when you are pushing the car to its limits. Sounds like a lot & you would think removing that would do wonders for the car BUT: Total suspension movement on each corner is over 300mm with a useful range of at least 20 - 30mm where weight transfer is not so off the scale the car becomes hopeless to control. Tyre sidewall flex is (depending on the tyres) up to 20 - 30mm sideways deflection & 10 - 20mm vertical deflection. Camber & caster changes on all four wheels can be as much as a couple of degrees depending on the bushes used & ho hard the car is pushed. Suddenly the ~10mm of chassis movement starts looking like the least of your problems aye! Don't get all stupid & think that I am not aware that a slicktop will out perform a T top in feeling stiffer on the road & the track & will have slightly less chassis flex overall. It comes back to what I mentioned earlier about the chassis design, you might be able to make a magic foam that sets as hard as a diamond & might weight as little as a feather. Unless the design of the chassis is such that it allows that extra strength to be transferred & utilized in a useful way then the end result is not going to be helpful. I've got a couple of Z32s in bits right now at the shop so I can look over the structure without having to rely on memory & I can see some significant issues in applying this stuff to the chassis in a way that wont screw up refitting of trim but will assist in transferring loads successfully. Why piss about? why not just go the full monty & get a full carbon fiber chassis built & mass produced 2+0 slicktop thanks - just shift the wheels ever so slightly for a longer wheelbase without screwing up the looks. I'd buy one before I would go for foam filling the dirty ole steel chassis.
No dispute with what is said by the crusty Kiwi! However, if it made little seat-of-the-pants difference AND still helped reduce possible rusting.. then its not a bad thing!!! Ill say it again, AND taking into account Crusty's comments above, the theory is sound and Id give it a try. Whats to loose? E
