Current Build for a customer 800HP

Discussion in 'Member's Garage' started by Tech@EPR, Apr 27, 2010.

  1. pearlwhite94ttz

    pearlwhite94ttz New Member

    Well, since my previous motor died from oil starvation, I have had Mitch do about 80% of his oil modifications on this motor and will also be running his ported oil pump which contrary to popular belief, he DOES do in his house.

    I went over there around December of last year and saw one of them laid out on his table getting worked. You can actually tell why it flows more once you see it but I can't get into it any more than saying he knows what the hell he's doing. :cool:
     
  2. mungyz

    mungyz Well-Known Member

    I'm curious as to how he can make a hydraulic pump flow more by porting it or whatever?
    There are some simple laws of physics here that just can't be broken so ultimately unless he fits a bigger set of pump gears or opens up the inlet substantially then flow rate will remain the same. Surely?

    The restrictions within the pump itself are minimal when compared to the rest of the engine (bearings, piston squirters etc) & this is why we have pressure in the system.
    The standard pump already produces more than enough flow to create good pressure well down in the rev range & opens the bypass valve to regulate so how/why produce more??

    Sure bigger bearing clearances will see lower oil pressure at lower RPM but again the restriction in flow is not the shape/size of the oil pump housing it is the size of the pump gears (the actual pump itself).

    Bit of the old snake oil going around here me thinks :rolleyes:
     
  3. pearlwhite94ttz

    pearlwhite94ttz New Member

    He had explained it to me, but I forget as it was almost a year ago. Hopefully he'll chime in at some point.
     
  4. Tech@EPR

    Tech@EPR Member

    by increasing cross section, radiusing port paths and blending areas, you can pick up quite a bit of flow in allowing the ease of flow to be greater. Less restrictions, more flow, easier for the pump to pump and recover quicker. Thats the whole idea behind the ported oil pumps.

    The restrictions in the pump are not minimal. There is A LOT to be reworked on these oil pumps. But I will have a new billet HV oil pump out very soon. I"m having the gears being made as we speak with a new billet back plate to accommodate the bigger gears.

    Depending on oil clearances, you can maintain regular oil pressure however the VG has TOO high of oil pressure to begin with. The problem lies in not only the oil pressure being created but how the oil is being distributed throughout the engine as well. Crankshaft needs to be modified as well as oil gallies. HVHV is the death of the VGs oil system. My approach to the oil pumps isn't to increase pressure but to remove restrictions there within the pump to make it run more efficient with less work. Performance is nothing more than making more with less. This is a direct approach to this situation.
     
  5. 260DET

    260DET Active Member

    What is this HVHV you speak of?
     
  6. deadlyzx

    deadlyzx New Member

    wow u wernt jokeing about the pics
     
  7. mungyz

    mungyz Well-Known Member

    Hmmm interesting ....

    So you have a pump supplying fluid into a system at a rate higher than the system can use it thus creating pressure.
    To say that removing restrictions from inside the pump creates more oil flow infers that the pump housing itself creates a fairly high percentage of the restriction in the system.

    I am having a hard time agreeing with that, using the same/similar logic if we fit a full flow oil cooling system to the engine are we to expect poor lubricating performance due to the extra resistance to flow now in the system?
     
  8. a2zed

    a2zed Guest

    What he is saying is removing restrictions in the pump body allows the pump to perform with less stress, not making anymore flow/pressure.

    Whether this actually does anything of benefit is highly debatable and without extensive testing on a hydraulics bench it is only guess work.
     
  9. Tech@EPR

    Tech@EPR Member

    high volume/high velocity
     
  10. Tech@EPR

    Tech@EPR Member

    how am I increasing pressure when I don't alter the spring inside the pump? The pump has quite a bit of restrictions in the form of its pathway of which I modify and allow oil to flow better. If you can efficiently and effectively allow fluid to flow easier at a given rate you will flow more over time. The pump in itself is restrictive due to cross section of the feed/return paths. Porting these allows the pump to work more efficiently and thus allowing fluid flow to be increased at a given pressure.
     
  11. Tech@EPR

    Tech@EPR Member

    less stress has nothing to do with restriction. If I eliminate restrictions to a minimal amount compared to stock the pump will flow more at X rate compared to before with the restrictions. Pressure is defined by the spring and its rate of compression under load.
     
  12. a2zed

    a2zed Guest

    The pump will not flow more, it will change pressure because the differential between inlet and outlet is altered, flow is governed by rotor rpm (disregarding friction,temp etc).

    Pressure is defined by the restriction to flow in the entire system, the spring is a pressure relief that dumps flow when the pump supply is above the design requirements due to rotor speed.

    By porting the oil pump, you are relieving effort required by the pump to pull and push oil.
     
  13. Tech@EPR

    Tech@EPR Member

    the pump exerts too much pressure to begin with. Allowing the fluid flow to slow down some helps this engine greatly, that relieving that you are speaking of is very vital. I agree with you in regards to the flow statement and pressure but is not fair to say that removing restrictions and allowing the pump to flow more efficiently will yield better flow regardless of pressures. Flow is flow regardless of what pressure is behind it. I don't port these pumps so big that I loose an excessive amount of pressure but its enough to make a noticeable difference in the right direction of oiling.
     
  14. mungyz

    mungyz Well-Known Member

    The pressure is a result of the flow and the restriction in the system, the flow is determined by the speed of the pump & any leakage internally (higher pressure = more internal leakage so less volume per minute).

    The size of the inlet port was determined by Nissan to get adequate pressure & flow to suit the rest of the system without overloading the pump gears or the crank (see failure of RB series eng at high RPM).

    It is more efficient to restrict to flow IN to the pump to control output pressure than it is to bleed excess off afterwards, see latest common rail diesel fuel pump designs from Merc etc.

    Larger cross sectional areas in suction systems also promote boiling of fluids leading to aeration of the oil in the pump etc causing delays in flow recovery.

    The cross sectional area of all flow paths in the pump is far greater than the galleries in the engine & at least equal to the size in the inlet of the pump.
    So nothing to be gained there I'm afraid.

    The real question is:
    Will this relive all my aches & pains?
    Will this grow the hair back on my 89 year old grand dads head?
    Do you predict a 10 year longer lifespan? :p:rofl:
     
  15. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

  16. a2zed

    a2zed Guest

    By the sound of it, all 3 of us have a reasonable grasp on hydro-dynamics. But I am pretty sure all 3 of us could use an pump engineer to clear a few things up.

    CHRISPY????please explain.
     
  17. Tech@EPR

    Tech@EPR Member

    the VG has excessive pressure there is nothing adequate about it. The oiling system in the block and crank are indicative to the oil pumps ability. The pump flows good....can it be better..yes. The cranks design is a low speed oiling design which plagues us with over oiling and pin wheeling of the oil off the rod bearings (reason why 90% of Zers toss rod bearings all the time). The oil gallies are terribly too small and require much work to get them to work better for this engine to yield better oiling abilities and keep the bearings in a good working condition.

    Failure to the RB engines oil pumps is directly linked to harmonics and vibrations given off by the crankshaft. This leads to oil pump failure and resulting in the pumps gears breaking/cracking and so forth.

    The VGs oil galleys are unfortunately too small to allow oil to be used properly. Its under too high of pressure, doesn't allow the oil to turn fees-ably under load and the crankshaft does the worst job of oiling from the factory I've ever seen. All oil modifications that I do in regards to the crankshaft, oil pump and oil galleys are running with out issue and are keeping all items well lubricated in a better manner than what Nissan did from the factory. Low speed oiling is designed to oil and saturate parts at low load and speed conditions. This is great for day to day driving and keeping the RPM within a respectable manner. High speed oiling allows the oil to be defined to one area at a given rate and not pin wheel like what happens with the stock oiling system.

    Take what I've said for what its worth. I've worked on the worlds fastest diesel, build 2000+HP BBC and SBC. Have extensive hands on and experience in oiling systems in how to modify and make them better and for the VG with what I know and what I've tried, my approach to this oiling system is rock solid in performance and survivability. I'm not saying in any way that Nissans design is wrong but it is wrong for the types of driving and power we are making now a days. I could care less about what someone builds that makes X amount of power, my focus is on fixing the issues first and then proceeding to power production. Power is only as good as the life it uses. Without it, it ceases to exist.
     
  18. Tech@EPR

    Tech@EPR Member

    I agree. I will make some phone calls this week and run a few things by a friend of mine who is a fluid engineer for some top racing teams. he used to work for Williams F1 a few years back. I'll see what he has to say regarding this as well.
     
  19. 260DET

    260DET Active Member

    Recall a bloke who specialises in head porting and induction work saying that flowing hydraulic oil pumps made a big difference to their output with no other changes being made. Forget the detail but the improvement was impressive.
     
  20. a2zed

    a2zed Guest

    I built the engine in the new owners 2nd car, also diesel, a full chassis XB coupe built TD style.
     

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