Foam Filling Chassis

Discussion in 'Non Technical' started by boo5t, Oct 6, 2011.

  1. Jordz

    Jordz Fashionably Late

    Dont get me wrong, foam filling has it benefits im sure, but there are plenty of cheaper and more effective alternative available. Id do what anti did, forget about the chassis rails and seam weld the sheets of steel that are just glued down.
     
  2. Jordz

    Jordz Fashionably Late

    Also,

    [​IMG]
     
  3. SuperZ

    SuperZ Resident Z lunatic

    You cannot have your cake and eat it - it your referencing!


    There is benefits of both and as I said it is not a complete solution - it comes down to cost and foam is very cheap!


    Almost sounds like a roll cage doesn't it? Exactly what I said - provides an increase in slight strength!
    A roll cage is not there to increase stiffness, its there to stop you becoming a bloody mushed up pulp in an accident. The extra stiffness is just a happy bonus.

    I was only using his quotes - I never said roll cages were there to increase stiffness - so foam helps in an impact is what your saying - I can agree with that


    This is correct! EVERYONE knows there is movement in the chassis rails! This is why we spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars in trying to brace them to reduce this flex and metal fatigue (at a molecular level)

    Guess what those braces are made out of? Ill give you a hint: they're not made of foam. Imagine if those hollow braces were (not all braces are solid)!

    This would imply that you need to see the same in aircraft for it to be of effective value yet it is still used. You actually don't need to see any sills moving at all it only needs to occur at a molecular level for metal fatigue to occur. In addition the whole design of the chassis rail and the design of the car itself is purely designed to assist in reducing this wrinkle forming in the first place. This is why I stated it improves slight rigidity of the chassis rails

    The level of metal fatigue between even the hardest driven cars and a jet aircraft is not comparable. True - he made the comparison when he included it into the thread Ive actually looked into this. My mother works at ATTAR (Advanced Technology Testing and Research. Sounds cool huh?) and trains people to look for stress damage on aircraft wing using electron microscopes. The metal fatigue our car feels is not even remotely close to that of a 10m+ wing that can travel through severly turbulent air at many times the speed your car drives at, and even then foam filling is primarily only on the leading edge of the wing. How often do a 747's wings just drop off? If a jumbo jet only uses a small amount of foam to compensate for metal fatigue, saying we NEED it is laughable. Any metal under vibration doesn't need to be travelling at the speed of sound to suffer fatigue - the metal in an aircraft is predominately aluminium not STEEL - there is a difference as you put it! The foam used in the sandwich process is as was put to assist preventing the metals from bending inward - this is an induces metal fatigue itself as the metal cannot bend in and out as much! The wings of a 747 are also attached using large sheets of Velcro! - that also doesn't mean its weak! :eek:

    This is actually incorrect! There are now many inexpensive and mid-range price cars out there with foam filled alloy sections! I am happy to obtain a list if you intend to dispute this!

    Modern chassis have foam filling to save dollars, not for added rigidity. Its cheaper to make pillars out of 0.5mm steel/ally and fill the cavity with foam then to make it out of 1mm steel/ally or put more structural folds in the design. (thinner/lighter) materials in the manufacturing process. Again this is only partly true in that yes - it is to save dollars - but it only saves dollars because it assists with rigidity and provides additional strength

    Before you say "see the foam makes it more strongerer and racecar!", its not there to reduce chassis flex. Its to share the absorbtion of impact in crashes, due to using cheaper. This is very true however basic science shows us that it also does assist in reducing chassis flex if it is tight fitting - such as an expanding foam with hardened glass particles

    I have made no reference to multimillion dollar race cars made of predominately carbon fibre in this thread - I have only been talking about Z's and it being a very cheap, cost effective part solution to many problems of which rust and vibration absorption are just some of the benefits!

    By far this has been the most constructive post so far offered against the use of foam (and I appreciate this)- however it has omitted many of the other benefits and somewhat dismissed the fact that this is very cheap cost effective part solution to many of the problems in the average Z!

    Sincere Regards Jordz
    JC
     
  4. SuperZ

    SuperZ Resident Z lunatic

    Umm... yes it does - knock yourself out!

    Yes it does - don't believe me?

    Get an empty cardboard box and hit yourself in the head and watch it crush!
    Then fill it with foam and do the same - if you hit yourself in the head with this scientific fact hard enough - you will probably scientifically knock yourself out before you crush the box! :rofl:

    JC ...."some parts of me are missing as well!"
     
  5. Z32 TT

    Z32 TT Active Member

    whats your fastest time around a track or drag in your zed?
     
  6. SuperZ

    SuperZ Resident Z lunatic

    OMG - here comes the minion trolls!

    What the f...does that have to do with anything like rust prevention etc? :confused:

    See my earlier posts for a further explanation ;)

    Try to be constructive here - not mine is bigger than yours, mine is faster than yours! :rofl:

    MINE IS RED! :rofl:

    :rolleyes:

    JC
     
  7. Z32 TT

    Z32 TT Active Member

    no trolling just cutting the shit and been a realist. mungyz, black beast and 260Z are the fastest track guys commenting on this thread. I listen to people that go fast.. how fast do you go? what real world practicle experience in a zed do you have to piss on these other posters?

    btw I dont hang my dick on my 24 year old datsun. I just dont want young guys reading all this mess thinking its great information.
     
  8. rob260

    rob260 Administrator Staff Member

    Ha that'll be news to him haha
     
  9. SuperZ

    SuperZ Resident Z lunatic

    Time to run away and troll elsewhere then

    I have not pissed on these other posters - I respect them, but acknowledge that no one person knows everything including me. I haven't even responded to black beast in critique but rather agreed with his comments??

    I also respect people the others here who have also offered sound information in reply and I have been constructive just like them!

    You don't need to bring in others here - they are all big boys and can handle themselves many times over without needing you to stand up and bring this into it to support your trolling comments - this is known as kibitzing! (a dubious trait and disrespectful to them all)

    Regardless

    You need to do the same instead of trolling with my "dick is bigger than yours" comments

    If you don't hang your dick on a 24yr old Datsun - why are you here in the first place - time to run away and find another new car forum to troll! ;)

    Please try to keep this thread related - hijacking for your own purposes is disrespectful to the author - time to get back on track!

    Regards

    JC
     
  10. Z32 TT

    Z32 TT Active Member

    not trolling. Just calling you out.
     
  11. mungyz

    mungyz Well-Known Member

    And some times people need to be called out so others don't read junk & believe it then pass it on to others.

    People misread the stuff about being able to bend things, what I was saying (forgive me if I repeat it exactly the same - it just seems the best way to explain it to me):

    If you took a given section of the chassis & used it as a mold to create a casting of the innards with this magic foam people seem to be in love with, you would be able to twist and contort & likely break with your bare hands that foam casting.

    I did not say you could do this with a section of the actual chassis or car body HOWEVER if you were to remove just one section of the chassis (say the drivers side chassis rail) you might be surprised at just how flexible they are when removed from the supporting structure around them.

    My overall point is as far as performance goes adding a foam filling wont stop a relatively stiff chassis from moving ever so slightly.

    As others have pointed out you can use weaker materials & then help them achieve a given level of strength with foam filling, I would challenge that you wont be able to exceed the strength offered by simply using stronger materials to start off with.
    Decreased weight perhaps but then that is not the subject here as we are talking of adding a system to a structure that has not been designed with that system in mind from the start.

    Wings held on with velcro - rubbish, Even on the most highly advanced aircraft wings and major control surfaces are attached using good old fashioned nuts & bolts or if permanently attached with no need for removal for maintenance riveted or bonded on (applies normally only to some experimental aircraft)

    When I mentioned aircraft I was actually referring to craft more advanced than dirty old 747s.

    Things like the Diamond DA42 with its virtually full carbon fibre construction, a little Kevlar chucked in there here and there but mostly carbon fibre. Wing surfaces & controls are bonded layers with a foam core.

    I have NEVER seen or heard of a modern supercar with foam filled alloy sections in its chassis (unless it was only due to production techniques making it easier jut to fill that section while they were at it).
    I'm happy to learn though so please do provide details - as much as you can, I'd like to see & learn.
     
  12. SuperZ

    SuperZ Resident Z lunatic

    Lets get back on track

    On what exactly?
    You have offered no constructive points in relation to this thread

    Lets get back on track with foamseal - please!
     
  13. WhiteNight

    WhiteNight Littering and...

    An aircraft wing needs a lot of flexibility. Foam is suitable for skin tension and filling cavities. Its the opposite of a vehicle that needs rigidity.

    The analogy of hitting someone with an empty box and a foam filled box is ludicrous. Might as well say hit someone with a length of empty chassis rail compared to a foam filled chassis rail.
     
  14. SuperZ

    SuperZ Resident Z lunatic

    Thanks for being constructive



    Not at all - the flimsy box demonstrates that something filled is much harder to crush on impact - the other analogies used in this post have been much more ludicrous! Should I quote them?? :rolleyes: Its actually ludicrous to compare hitting a chassis rail upon someone's head in the first place - it is better to do this under scientific measurement - I can guarantee the results will be an improvement - no matter how small - especially if the ends are sealed and contained. ;)

    I seem to constantly have to remind people again and again - this is not the cost of gold bar nor has it the weight of a gold bar or 50KG! :p

    This is not a complete solution - it is a cost effective cheap and lightweight part solution to the average Z (you don't need to be a million dollar race car) - seems most people agree with this fact - but then dismiss it in context when replying


    Next! ;)

    and Regards for not T....... this time


    For those concerned/ interested - I have made contact with the manufacturer and am awaiting their recommendations - once this is done - I will be able to get the product number and then get the MSDS for the properties of the specific material given there is a large range of densities and foams available for various vehicles (GM/Ford/Nissan etc) - wont be long now!

    Cheers


    JC
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  15. mungyz

    mungyz Well-Known Member

    :rofl::rofl:

    And yes you're right the construction techniques (for an aircraft at least) must provide pretty much as much strength as possible (without just going stupid & making it heavy) but must still have a certain level of compliance IE: wont just smash to bits if slightly overloaded.

    That being said similar construction techniques are used for the safety cell/main chassis of modern formula one race cars (and many others) & the end result is a VERY stiff structure.
    Horses for courses etc :)
     
  16. boo5t

    boo5t Member

    Each to their own

    Your rims, bigger turbos you never use UNLESS your breaking the law of tracking it, front bar, white number plate, chili sticker, all could be called "wank factor".

    I am in for this Super Z and we could even do it together one weekend. I am only doing a couple of sections though and dont see a need to do everything.... it will be a good litmus test.

    I agree re the 50KG weight. The cans do NOT weigh 50KG. When you spray it out where does this magical weight appear from?? It will weight whatever the product does from the manufacturer in its contained form.

    Its good enough for manufacturers its good enough for me... It will help NVH levels + make the car feel much more solid like a newer car which is why i want to do it
     
  17. QLDZDR

    QLDZDR ID=David

    Anyone in my local area (south east Brisbane)
    doing this to a targa or convertible, let me know.
    I will lend a gloved hand or two.
    Let me know if you need to borrow a jack or axle stands. :D
     
  18. SuperZ

    SuperZ Resident Z lunatic

    At 50KG of foam - Your Z would look like this!


    Hey Boo5t Buddy!

    Yep - I have multiple confirmations of the density being at between 5 - 7lbs per cubic Feet (5-7lbs/cuft depending on specifications of the range of foam ) - which with simple calculations means 50KG is 260 CUBIC FEET OF FOAM !which is the almost exactly the same volume as the entire Z ! :rofl:

    with that you could expect your Z to look something like this:

    [​IMG]
    :rofl: :eek:

    No disrespect to Anti here - I know him personally and he is a really great young bloke and quite intelligent - its just a decimal place error - simple to do - he's just being stubborn in accepting 50kg is 260 cubic feet!

    Some great news - Howard (manufacturer) has contacted me and referred me to an Australian Distributor - this means we can save on freight costs! Whether we buy individually or as a group depends on whether we can get a substantial discount as a G.B. - I am still waiting for recommendations and tech specs - stay tuned!

    I would be happy to be the first puppy off the rank and supply a detailed procedural video and picture presentation for the rest that are interested - the only problem I see is that I have a lot on my plate and I have to move houses soon :eek: But I have confidence this will be easy, quick and painless as well ;)
    Full steam ahead!


    Cheers and regards to you Boo5t!

    JC
     
  19. boo5t

    boo5t Member

    Cool lets get some prices, buy it and arrange a time to get together and do it... I think we need two ppl as the mixing time is very very short and we can **** shit up very quickly if we are not prepared.
     
  20. SuperZ

    SuperZ Resident Z lunatic

    Have you used a can of whipped cream before?

    Its all in the process right now mate!

    I now know the spec for the 300ZX is 60A....the manufacturer has told me the distributors are experts at this and are even more qualified than them to advise! :rofl:

    Product ID is still unknown at this stage - waiting for further information.......

    Mate - you seem to lack confidence or have doubt in this product and its ease of use!
    You will find preparation is important but that you don't need one person - actually one minute is a lot of time to push it through under pressure even though a small hole - to go through multiple places makes it very simple indeed and easy to achieve a job well done. The hardest part with this is - if it gets on your skin it can take three weeks to get rid of it - and you don't want to get it on paint!

    Comes back to the old P's:
    Prior Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance! :rofl:

    I will be happy to video it all and show just how easy this is to get the job done properly! ;)

    It's a bit like using a can of whipped cream - find the hole and push it in and watch where it comes out! That simple! :rofl:

    Cheers
    JC
     

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