Tramlining

Discussion in 'Non Technical' started by beaver, Apr 17, 2018.

  1. beaver

    beaver southern zeds

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    Got some new tires on my car, michelin pilot super sport, 265-35-18 rear 225-40-18 front. The tiers I had before hand were a little wider and had no where near the grip the michelins have. Problem is the michelins follow every seam rut swale or little imperfection in the road surface. The car is a real hand full (both hands on the wheel)when the tiers cold but they improve some when heated up. The previous tires did tramline a little when cold, it all but disappeared when they warmed up. Anyone else using these tires, or tires that tramline? can anything be done in regards to alignment, maybe some of it can be dialed out. Ideas welcome.
     
  2. Shane001

    Shane001 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe try different tyre pressures
     
  3. jellybeans

    jellybeans Active Member

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    Sorry non of this is Z specific just an observation of what you say and what i have found in the past.

    Did you get a wheel alignment after buying the new tyres? if not then we can assume that the suspension geometry and its condition are unchanged. So the tram lining caused by the vehicle design, its current wear amounts and it's current geometry setting is all unchanged. You say your new tyres have more grip, are narrower and exhibit worse tram lining. My guess is that the new tyres are lower and or stiffer in the side wall. With less sidewall flex you are getting a stronger tramline effect because the sidewall transfers more force from the road surface iregularities due to being stiffer. As the tyres heat up they become softer, the effects subside slightly because the sidewall is more flexible when warm. Both sets of tyres showed the same pattern of improvement after heating.
    Now what is causing the tram lining that makes you drive with 2 hands ? My guess is bad geometry and or wear. Go and see Pedders. Just joking don't see Pedders. I'd pay close attention to caster angles based on my experience with vastly different and less complex designs. I don't know whats adjustable stock on a Z but i personally believe that if you drive hard you need a different set up to someone who cruises. Especially as far as camber goes. you will know when you have the right set up because your tyres will be worn out all over not just on an edge. Tramlining on poor roads with wide tyres is going to be hard to remove completely as the tyres are making varying contact patches. Narrow tyres have long contact patches and tall flexible sidewalls which slows down tram lining. Why does the army run tall thin tyres on there 4x4's ?
     
  4. beaver

    beaver southern zeds

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    Yes I've tried different pressures, went from 32psi down to 28psi, it did make a difference.
    I also say that the suspension setup on the car is tight, there are no worn out parts that i no of like ball joints control arm bushes ect ect, The shocks are kyb with eibach springs, and white line sway bars which I removed and went back to the stock sway bars, that also made a positive difference. On a smooth straight road hands off, the car drives straight. . I did some digging around and found out that I'm not alone in complaining about tramlining with these tires. They fit them to new bm's mercs european
    sports car in general, even so some owners complain about tramlining, wile others say they have just learnt to live with it, or b/s like (its the price you pay for a performance tire) which I don't believe for a moment. Did you get a wheel alignment after buying the new tyres? no, its next.
     
  5. MAX

    MAX Ex Zedder

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    I believe the michelin range is generally a stiff tyre. This is how how they get good mileage.

    Also as mentioned above you have low profiles with stiff sidewalls. On my zed I went from 18's to 16's with good tyres. Best decision ever.
     
  6. IB

    IB ?????

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    How much rear toe in do you have? You might need some more.
     
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  7. Fists

    Fists Well-Known Member

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    After a couple of heat-cycles (full track heat) my advans did start to track wear lines in the road like that quite badly, I think excessive camber due to lowering plus busted camber arm adjusters contributed. New falken azenis 510 with 1mm front toe in, neutral rear toe and -2deg camber on the back now its fine.
     
  8. beaver

    beaver southern zeds

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    Thanks for the replies, I'm not sure about the rear toe IB, i'd say its neutral. I string lined each side through the center points of the wheels, and set the front toe in at 5mm. I don't have adjustable arms anymore, sold the lot, and went back to stock. I'm having a proper aliment tomorrow. I had falkens before hand fists,275-35-18 rear 225-40-18 front, the car didn't have anywhere near the skittish behavior it has now. I'll also say the michelins are soft, I can push my finger into side walls a little, there not hard at all, there also sticky, they pick up just about everything they go over, its quite annoying. They do have there good points, when up to temperature traction and cornering is incredible, at speed they don't tramline.. which is no good to me.
     
  9. East Coast Z

    East Coast Z Well-Known Member

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    "set the front toe in at 5mm"
    The correct alignment of the front toe in figure is 0 to 2mm.

    Be interesting to see what the proper alignment figures turn out to be.
    They should give you a before & after printed copy of the alignment settings.
     
  10. beaver

    beaver southern zeds

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    Just got the car back, i watched the guy do the alignment, and called out the toe numbers of the computer when he did the back wheels.
    The rear toe was +18mm, miles out, it was set to 1.5m front was near as bad @ +12mm and was set to 1.5mm. Even though I had the specs for the stock alignment, the operator (John)said, because the car had been lowered( eibach springs) those setting were the way to go, and he was right. The car is now back to normal, there is no sign of tramlining, Its like night and day black and white. I'll never play with suspension settings again.. Its a joy to drive, I'm Pretty dam happy:)
     
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  11. MagicMike

    MagicMike Moderator Staff Member

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    Good result mate
     
  12. jellybeans

    jellybeans Active Member

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    Thats mental, i'm surprise 2 hands was enough to keep it on the road. Id have been asking the passenger to help.
     
  13. East Coast Z

    East Coast Z Well-Known Member

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    Looks like you can't measure for sh*t.

    You reckoned the front was 5.0mm toe in & in reality it was 12.0mm toe out.
    That's a difference of 17.0mm!
    Toe is part of the alignment setting.
    What were, or are the camber settings?
     
  14. East Coast Z

    East Coast Z Well-Known Member

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    You were spot on with this one Ian.
     

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