Clutch Fun...*warning* Long read and frustration

Discussion in 'Non Technical' started by tassuperkart, Oct 24, 2010.

  1. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

    Had trouble with the MS slowly "sinking" So get another good one.
    1.5 solid hours to R & R.............

    Then bleed the system......... OMFG what moronic imbecile designed that hydraulic system? I mean, for better or worse, clutch master/slave systems have been working well enough for a hundred years and some brightspark Tojo pen-pushing injunear decide to go and add the "pipe to nowhere"! What, just to justify his employment in the R & D dept of Nissan sportscars????? Feckstick! What head of department allowed such a travesty???

    Why in feckin fecks name would you:
    1: Have the outlet of the MS pointing DOWN necessitating a funky bleed point on top. In this instance the outlet could point in any direction and at worse resulting in a extra bend or 2 in the hardpipe.
    Whats wrong with running the outlet off to the side with the drilled port uppermost at the end of the cylinder like every other frikken manufacturer in the world!

    2" Run a hard line down to some stupid splitter block, not anywhere particular in the system, just stuck there to look funky and then run an 8mm hard line, yep, 8mm FFS, a meter up to a useless bleed point that bleeds nothing anyway and just adds a whole heap of stagnant fluid to the system.....
    I mean surely if you were going to fit something as useless as this line in the first place, youd keep it inline with the rest of the automotive hydraulic world and just use plain old brake bundy....... 8mm hard steel line...and for what? Nothing.
    But , oh no! Tojo the tosser decide to get funkier still and add a nice little steel union block the mysterious "Pipe To Nowhere" just to add a further couple of hundred grand of R & D time and later on, manufacturing costs. delet that stupid line, its attachments and associated paraphenalia and Nissan would have saved probably several million dollars in manufacturing costs. but no, Tozo the in-jun-ear insists and somehow hoodwinks his immediate superiors into believing such bollocks is really necessary in a high end Japanese sports car.,.....yeah riiiiiiight. How much Saki and sushi did that one take Tojo???
    I digress, and to make matters worse, specifies 8mm steel pipe to make it useless as a pressure supply point.
    More on that later.
    I even made up a pressure bleeding rig and used that nipple from nowhere as the supply point and just bled off the other two....nope. Didnt work. Not enough fluid flow to actually push the air out of this big pipe to nowhere. Fluid just runs down and the air percolates back up to the highh point and stays there. Found that out later on.

    3: Use a slave cylinder with the bleed point at its LOWEST point necessitating to unbolt the cylinder, cramp it gently with a G-clamp and prop it up sos the bleed point is topmost sos all the air actually comes out. No amount of bleeding will remove it all unless the cylinder is removed and bled upside down.

    4: Design a return spring on the clutch pedal which overcenters and PULLS the fekking pedal down to the floor meaning you cant just leisurely sit in the seat and pump the pedal....oh no siree! Someones has to kneel in the dirt and pump that mutherfekker by hand dont they, positively pulling it up each stroke......... god save me from this lunacy!!!!!!!
    This little gem actually caused me to stop the car halfway across an intersection,switch off, select 1st gear then wind iot off the mark on the starter becuse the pedal pulled itself all the way down and you cant pull the pedal up with steecapped boots on nor can you actually reach it from the usual sitting position.... fekkin bewdy!

    So, what should be a leisurely 30 minutes R&R and at most 5 minutes to bleed has taken close to 5 solid hours but It still hasnt ended yet........... Read on.

    Because the slave bleed point is lowest on the cylinder, to remove all the air I had to unbolt the cylinder, modify and use a funky little cramp on it to keep the piston from popping out and bleed it while holding this whole shebang together at an appropriate angle.
    Neway, leaving it all sitting propped up on a carboard box sos the angle of the dangle is correct, we move back up to the MS to re-bleed that pesky bleed nipple there and pay some attention to the "pipe to nowhere".
    Well of course it would, the freakin clamp slipped off without us knowing and we slowly pumped the piston out while bleeding and guess what? The fecking kenting cocksarker piston popped right out, draining the system and damaging the cup seal so when i re-assembled it and we finally bled this masterpiece of Tojo's engineering bollockery back to some form of life and left it overnight, the arsewiping kent fluid drained out past the damaged cup seal.......... DIDNT IT! Of course it did. Murphy's Law!

    I found an old aluminium slave out in my old parts and rubbish pile (one handy thing is just about every Nissan uses the same slave cylinder) and popped it apart. Being aluminium and laying for years, it was corroded up a bit inside but still useable and the seal "looked" ok.
    BUT, to add further insult, my brake cylinder hone is broken and the new replacement has not arrived in stock at the local Repco ........has it!........................
    OK go ghetto, use a little imagination and what I have at hand on a Sunday morning 30 minutes drive from the nearest Repco, out with the little Dremel emery mops which, coincidentally are about 20mm in diameter when new, onto the end of a slow drill and hone the cylinder back to some form of order. I dont have any fine mops to polish it so the only way I had of polishing up was to hacksaw down a length of 10mm ally tube and slip into the slot (oxymoron?) in a flap of worn out fine(ish) emery cloth, roll it up around the split tube, poke it into the bore and wizz away with the drill. The results are surprisingly good for the ghetto style engineering.
    Clean everything up, slip the old seal back in and hope to god the seal is not damaged or gone too hard actually seals up at all and go right back thru that frikken kenting feker fekkern fek of a bleeding process and........ and,....... and.

    Now, here's where I got funky. I made up a simple power bleeder. I drilled the cap of the fluid bottle and jammed in a length of rubber hose as a pickup tube and then added a couple of feet of clear hose which goes off to the bleeder points
    Another hole had a short length of rubber hose attached and into this I jammed the air blower handpiece into.
    Turned the regulator down on the compressor to about 2 psi, wired the airblower gun on and voilah! Instant pressure bleed.

    AND, *drum rolls*
    Ladies and gentle men, it works...................................................... NOT as planned.
    I actually successfully cleared the air out of the ordinary small bore bundy lines but there was just not enough flowrate to clear that miserable asshole of an 8mm "pipe to nowhere"....bah.

    So, after pumping around 2 litres of fluid around the system I admitted defeat and realised I had to go back to the tried and tested 2 man system.
    So, draft in wifey, gaffer tape her down in position in the dust and shout "UP", DOWN", and "HOLD" at her while i move from various bleed points and top up the miserably small reservior..................... repeatedly!
    4 frikken times for each nipple starting from top to bottom...just to make bloody sure. And dont forget laying under the car, the juggling of the slave cylinder/clamp/all the whil keeping plastic hose into container while opening and closing bleed nipple headfarrrrrrkkk...........! Arrrrgh!


    wait for it....

    *drum rolls and a clash of cymbals and a large philharmonic orchestra playing a lound "Tah-Dah" chord*

    HORAY, Yes yes yes (think listening to the audio of Mark Weber winning his first Grond Pree) it bleeds up! No more sinking pedal and with some careful attention to the length of the pedal pusrod has more than enough throwout to help prevent graunchy gearchanges which is what was happening unless you pumped the pedal a poofteenth before gearchanges which gets very old very quickly.

    To her infinite credit, wifey came out, sat in the dust, threaded herself into the pedal area and worked that pedal like a champion without copmplaint!!!! Thanks Essie!

    So, its basically put a hole into 2 days with a job that would take 1 hour at worst case and there's still no guarantee that dodgey slave quickie "re-co' will hold up for any length of time until a new seal is finallyfitted and the slave line bled off again.............

    On a final not, Im going to bore the MS from 5/8" (16mm) to 17mm, machine up a bigger piston to increase slave cylinder movement sos I can LOWER the clutch pedal and shorten its throw.
    Might toughen up the pedal action a little but small price to pay.

    Then, the whole bleeding issue starts again so ill also make up a single discharge hard pipe and do away with Tojo the in-jun ear's idiotic "pipe to nowhere" and its stupid splitter block and never again will there be so much of an issue save for having to unbolt the slave and cramping it up and bleeding it that way.
    I might even modify the old slave with a new bleed point from the back of the cylinder to do away with having to remove it to the the job right.

    I just thought Id share this with you all!~!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Let us know your stories of woe!

  2. Chrispy

    Chrispy Pretentious Upstart

    That deserved a thanks! :rofl:

    Single braided line from master to slave + vacuum bleeder = 5 mins and a happy Chris :D
  3. Altari

    Altari '89 2+2 TT Manual

    Brilliant. :rofl::rofl:
  4. heavytrevy

    heavytrevy "Hammer time "

    Glad i drive an auto :p
  5. mungyz

    mungyz Well-Known Member

    Yip, I don't piss about with tojos mess just rip it all out & run a single stainless steel braided line = too easy to bleed.

    Stories of woe.......

    Nah I don't even want to think about it, I think I've come across most of the little gems they built in to these cars. I've lost a lot of hair & I blame these cars for most of that :rofl:
  6. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

    I have yards of brake bundy, tubenuts and a flaring/double flaring tool here so it costs me peanuts to make a hard line down to the original rubber line. See, I make all my own brake and clutch lines for the race car so always have plenty of such stuff on hand.
    To make smooth bends I usually pull the bundy around an old alternator pulley.

    Yep, rip out all that crap once and for all..... Later!

    On a positive note, so far the dodgey slave is dry and holding fluid.
    I took apart the old slave. The bore itself is pretty good but the wear on the piston is amazing! Probably 0.030" taper!!!! The seal is well munted with the sealing lip worn right away to almost nothing....sheesh, its amazing its lasted as long as it has!

    Cest la vie!

  7. parker

    parker Been around for a bit

    I had the same problem

    spent 2 days just trying to bleed the entire system and ended up getting a semi-working clutch. Have bought and received the new braided line from Z1 but haven't fitted it yet because of work.

    But I am hoping this fixes my problem so I can take it for a drive. I tell you that after a 2 year off the road build up and then being stuck for about 2 months because of a clutch line is a real PITA.

  8. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

    * sighs*, I feel your pain M8.

    TWIN TERROR Well-Known Member

    I don';t know if it would work on a Z but on the front brakes on trail bikes you use a large syringe ( super cheap sell a big mother ) fill it with brake fluid then put a clear hose on the end of the syringe and to the bleed nipple. Crack the nipple then push the fluid in bleeding from the bottom up. It works great .
    Cheers Dave
  10. Nigel300

    Nigel300 New Member

    UAS sell these one piece clutch lines for $120


    Bleeding with these took 10 minutes compared to over an hour with stock setup.
  11. Chrispy

    Chrispy Pretentious Upstart

    That was the only way I could bleed the clutch on my 'rolla... Works well :)
  12. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

    On another, related tack, while i was frigging with the clutch and doing testing yesterday with a partially releasing clutch, it occurrs to me that this gearbox has synchro on reverse. Is that usual on Zeds?
    Ive never known any other box to have reverse synchro??? This thing does no question.

  13. a2zed

    a2zed Guest

    Bahaha, that is one good read, but(and there is always a but) you're doing it wrong. Mighty-vac FTW. Takes about 2 minutes:p

    Also, I would like to know what that line to nowhere is for???????? The only reason I can think to have it is to do with keeping the fluid cool, but even that excuse is pushing the envelope.
  14. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

    Forgive my ignorance here but what is a Mighty-Vac? Pix?

    I have to bleed the brakes out on my race car the night before and during lunchbreak at race meetings which is tedious and messy at best doing it alone.

  15. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

    OK time to dig this thread!

    I ended up buying a MightyVac and man i have no idea how i could have gone thru the last 40 years of hydraulic agony without one!!!! I scored a genuine MightyVac complete brake service kit for under 40 bucks offen Ebay which was very cool.

    OK, after all the hassles of that freakin clutch drama back then, as you do, I completely forgot about the fact that i had a dodgey old temporary slave cylinder fitted which I had more or less dug up from the rubbish heap.

    The whole shebang has been operating faultlessly for just over a year and memories of the head fornication fading into obscurity and early friday morning "something" feels strange... Is that the peadl getting every so slightly longer?????????

    Thing is im off up the Launceston bright and early sat morning for a close M8's wedding and the weather report is for warm to hot weekend and im buggered iffen Im going to go up there in the "Ute Of Death" without the luxury of Aircon!

    Newhoo, get into work at 0530 ahead of a guaranteed 11 hour day (no chance in hell of even getting it repaired by someone) and having a quick squizz underneath, reveals wetness around the dust boot on the slave, a small number of drips underneath it and fluid level gone in the MC reservior............. Im instantly reminded of the total frustration af that arse of a job back then, the fact that i had neglected to replace that old dodgey slave and the fact I had been ignoring the level in the MC reservior every thime I lifted the bonnet of routine maintenance.... My fornicating BAD!

    At this early stage, i can do nothing about it as Im due under my truck trailers in 15 minutes including a 15 minute drive to get them so.........
    I grabbed a bottle of fluid on the way back late in the arvo and topped up the system fully expecting a sunken pedal and a pool of fluid under the car but incredibly, the system is working albeit with that longer pedal. As we already (painfully) know, Tojo the "Injunear" decided in R & D days to orient the outlet of the cylinder DOWN and necessitating the fitting of a stupid bleed nipple uppermost on the cylinder and of course, unlike almost EVERY other hydraulic cluth release in the world, cannot self bleed itself so i was surprised that the pedal was still as high as it was.

    I just had time to swing around to the local ABS brake joint with a view to purchasing a replacement cylinder.

    Now, some of you may know (and others will be pleasantly surprised) that most all Nissans use the same/similar slave cylinder. Even tho ABS list a different part number for them as the various models roll by!
    I ask for a 1990 Z32 300zx NA slave... "Nah dont carry something like that M8" is the predictable reply.
    K then, Z32 300zx TT slave. "Mmmmmm different part number M8, dont have one of them either"........ *cocks eyebrow" Eh??........
    OK, getting set for a little light banter, I suggest looking for one offen a D21 V6 Navara. " Nope dont have anything like that M8" is the reply.
    OK, (Now ill wheel out the bigger guns) Allright M8, try a 88 Z31 300zx V6....... "nope"
    280z "Nope"
    Maaaayyyte, try ANY Nissan with an "L" series engine, 240/260/280z, 240k, 260c, bluebirt, chrissst m8 dattoo 1600 and this dude kinda looks at me strangely seeing Im getting a glint in the eye and a strange twich of my eyebrow..... the left side to be more accurate.......!
    260Zed... "yer i got one for that" comes the reply with a triumphant look and the box is plopped down in front of me.
    Hint to salesman, they all use the same cylinder M8, some are cast iron, others are cast aloominem!!!!!!!
    Salesman looks perplexed and kinda nods in the affirmative but does not really seem convinced as the part numbers are different!!!!!!!
    Off I go with my shiney new aluminium slave ( I seem to recal somewhere on this forum them being for sale and touted as a "lightweight racing replacement" for some bullshite inflated price!
    newhoo, I handed over my 20 odd dollars retail and off I go!

    Now, returning to my zeds issues, i was expecting more leaking and a drained reservior overnight but *tah-daaaaahh* its dry and the level in the reservior is still full.
    Cool farrrkitt, i dont have time to replace and bleed the freakin system before out 0700 departure and bouyed by the still useable pedal height and no further drips we are off!! Sheelbee rite mayyyyte! have faith i tell the missus.

    Make it to Launceston and not a skerrick of level drop or wetness underneath. THEN just as Im just reversing into the yard and the pedal goes mush, down to the floor and the Zed leaps off backwards.... Im quick enough with the brakes and the key to stop it short of backing into the other parked cars in my mates yard and a look underneath reveals a trail of fluid on the ground and an ever growing puddle under the car............BAH! Into the garage after the swoiree and jack the fonicater thing up. OF COURSE I cannot completely lift the Zed using the very handy hoist he has in his very well equipped workshop so in the end, I just lifted the front up high with the arse end arms of the hoist and places stands under it and good enough.

    THIS time, I was prepared and i swapped the positions of the bleed nipple with the banjo bolt hose fitting (happily same thread) which now has the bleed point uppermost, unclamp the rubber line and let her gravity bleed!

    This time plenty of pedal and a happy smile on TSV's dial!
    Because Im fussy, I grabbed my M8's MightyVac, undid the "Line to nowhere" and bent the line upwards and vac bled that and got onto the pesky MC bleeder and bled that out and better than ever.

    Since I shared my original head farrrrk I just thought Id share this one as well!

    Moral of the story is that almost ANY earlier Nissan slave will/should replace the expensive stock job.
    There are a muititude of different part numbers for what amounts to the same actual part.
    If you buy one for a 260Z then you get yourself a shiney new "Lightweight Racing Slave Cylinder" for around the princely sum of $20.00 retail!

    Cheers all!
  16. Peter Black

    Peter Black Active Member

    Cheap and dodgy 'extra special light wieght racing clutch master' you say?

    That sounds just right for my cheap and dodgy light weight racing car!

    I'll keep that in mind for when I break the current one, I'm sure I will.

    I'm doing away with the clutch line to nowhere too, putting in one of the one piece braided lines that seem popular with people doung auto to manual conversions. Anywhere that I can throw out a big complicated thing for a small simple one sounds good to me.
  17. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

    I feel that unless the parts are not actually there, as in a auto-manual conversion, AND as much as I like the idea of a braided line only, there is no real reason not to keep the stock hardline/flex line and simply remove the "pipe to nowhere" and screw in a bung to block it off.
    Problem solved, no extra work and money saved for other important stuff like race entries!!!

  18. a2zed

    a2zed Guest

    I use 200B slaves, mainly because my supplier always has them in stock and almost gives them away.

    As for the mighty-vac, magic little bit of kit that can be used for a whole bunch of things that need to be sucked or blown.
  19. tassuperkart

    tassuperkart Its a lie I tell you!

    Yer, 'tis eric. Thanks for the heads up on the MightyVac back then. Worth its weight in gold!
    200b yer. Another Nissan generic slave. BUT are they Lightweight racing Alooooominem??? LOL
  20. Peter Black

    Peter Black Active Member

    For me it's worth it for the sake of cleaning up the engine bay as well as replacing all the hard lines and short stft lines with multiple joins with a single braided line with a single join at each end of it.

    I've got to order a bunch of other stuff from Z1 so I'll get one chucked it with it all, worth the small expense I think.


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